OK so let Ukraine join the EU!
this post was submitted on 18 Feb 2025
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who the fuck is russia, a non-EU, non-NATO empire to decide what a country that isn't them does?
Have you met russia?
They're corrupt oligarchs inside crime syndicates wrapped by insane dictators. We should probably take notes, our demented rapist will want us to follow suit in a few months no doubt.
Russia placed him at the head of government as a puppet, so yeah probably.
we're following suit already
Of course you're right morally, but it's still an interesting change in tone. This whole thing started when Russia threw a fit about Ukraine wanting closer ties to the EU instead of Russia. Now their official position is that even EU membership is totally fine. Seems like their position weakened quite a bit since 2014.
On the other hand, maybe this means Russia wants to fight the entire EU with their mutual defence pact when they attack again after recovering for a few years through a ceasefire. Or maybe they're gambling that the EU's requirements are too strict for Ukraine to join.
Or maybe it's just all lies again, of course. But still, an interesting weaker flavour of lies, in that case.
it's certainly a change from their declaration that Ukraine isn't a country and Ukrainians are actually Russians
I don't think that bit hasn't changed either. I think Putin made another one of those "Ukraine is historically Russian" statements, while completely ignoring the time when it wasn't Russia.
Part of the game is to put out many conflicting statements attached to as many opinions from state funded talking heads as possible.
I believe that when I researched last, the statement about Russia being able to take Ukraine "in three days" actually came from propagandists and I never found an official statement about it. Regardless, the point is that is gives the government plausible deniability with any statement if it was "accidentally taken out of context" by the state media.
completely ignoring the time when it wasn't Russia.
or the more hilarious: when russia was ukraine
(though i haven’t done much research; that could be a funny little “kinda but it’s more complex” quirk to history)
Seems like their position weakened quite a bit since 2014.
Seems like they need a breather and none of those things are going to be finished in the time they need for their breather.
And it is to Russia to decide? 😂
Russia and America seemingly. Not sure who voted America in as Ukraine’s proxy
America is Russia's proxy. Don't think Ukraine has one.
probably a couple hundred billion dollars got 'em in the door.
Why they think they can negitoate without the country they're talking about, though - well that's just demented and incompetent idiots freshly elected by stuipd, mouth-breathing, cloven-hooved, morons and their entire families.
It's undoubtedly part of some sleazy plan to screw over Ukraine for the demented rapist's BFF.
They simply think that world politics did not change since 1989
Make Russia Small Again
Big words coming from the country that can't finish a three day military operation in three years...
Eu army and then we dont need the stupid nato.
Am I remembering wrong or isn’t there something like NATO’s article 5 in the EU?
Yes, but it doesn't apply to the USA, and the rest of us don't scare Russia. Our priority should be to change this.
Please do, the EU scaring Russia and being able to stand on its own without NATO would be a good thing for democracies everywhere
My thoughts on this have not changed over the past twenty years, only my sense of urgency. I hope all of this will help push these ideas and policies forward.
Russia's economy is smaller than Italy's. If we wanted to defend ourselves, we very well could.
I am convinced of it, but I also believe that only GDP is not a sufficient indicator, things such as industrial production or R&D in the subject can be factors that complicate the thing.
In any case I am sure that a united European army would give Moscow cold sweats
It does and the actual wording is in my opinion a bit stronger in the EU guarantee, but I believe politically it's viewed as much weaker since the EU is fundamentally a economic/trade union and not a military one like NATO. That is to say, the EU could still exist without such a clause, but for NATO it's the entire reason for the organization to be.
EU: "obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in [the member state's] power"
NATO: "such action as [the member state] deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area"
Thing is though EU membership for Ukraine is still a ways off because there's still quite a lot of homework to do. A solution is needed now (better, five years ago), and that would mean a European defence treaty not limited to the EU. Also we want the UK to be part of it, anyway and, right now, while we're at it, let's make sure Canada is in.
until it’s tested, i’d guess states could say that “all the means” could be read with relation to trade and economics and other things governed by the EU
There is no precedent, 'all the means' could also be French nuclear weapons.
absolutely agree! could mean anything from sanctions and “stern words” to nuclear retaliation
That's not what "all" means.
law is complex and international treaties are rife with weasel word interpretation
It's even more explicit than Article 5 of NATO saying that the other members must do everything possible to support the attacked state
Yep
NATO's power lies not solely in its codified defense assurances, but in its integration. It might be a defense pact, but at its height of power, it is/was more than the sum of its members assistance.
Russia has a sovereign right to gargle my balls
That's a rather odd change of tone since the statement not only definitively states that Ukraine is a sovereign nation but it also outright encourages EU membership for Ukraine which comes with a similar military defense guaranty to NATO, though importantly it of course does not come with US backing. At a guess I would say that they are trying to preemptively position themselves as the "reasonable" party in the upcoming (on-going?) negotiations.
This is the realpolitik answer. Intake perception of power, intentions, hard power, and leverage, among other things to get the context for position changes.
Now that Trump's plan to seize 50% of Ukraine's mineral deposits has leaked, Putin might be more worried about the USA/NATO/"the west" getting "all" of Ukraine and Russia getting nothing. So if he backs off from wanting to seize Ukrainian territory, he can push for "Ukrainian sovereignty" to prevent the USA from turning Ukraine into a vassal state.
This isn't a new position. Putin has already said years back that he doesn't care if Ukraine joins the EU.
reasonable. How many war crimes do they have racked up? It's well into the thousands.
Easy, then lets Take Ukraine in and forge a european defense pact. Sounds good to me, should be for the other NATO members as well. We mighty try to fix some Things while we are at it...
The EU already has a very NATO like defense pack.
If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.
Article 42.7 TEU
Ah cool, didnt know that.
Do a European Defense Part, but Ukraine is not ready yet for EU. We don't want another Hungary with Veto rights. It's not only Homework for EU, but the EU itself needs to do some Homework before growing again
Ukraine does not meet BASIC requirements, it's as corrupted as Russia as far as EU used to say during the past 2 years...
Well, now the Ukrainians are really motivated to deal with their corruption, if it means EU membership.
So they should try fill the form again