this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2023
71 points (98.6% liked)

Asklemmy

43776 readers
1083 users here now

A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions

Search asklemmy πŸ”

If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!

  1. Open-ended question
  2. Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
  3. Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
  4. Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
  5. An actual topic of discussion

Looking for support?

Looking for a community?

~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_[email protected]~

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Self defense? Only on the battlefield? Only to achieve a β€˜noble’ end?

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Self defense. But also like someone else said proportionate response is key. If someone gets mad at you in a bar and throws a punch, pushing him away is fine. Hitting him to subdue him is probably okay. Shooting him dead is not.

I'm also not really okay with people using murder to defend their stuff. Like if someone sneaks into my house and I catch them going out the window with my tv, shooting them is not to me justified. There are more TV's. That guy gets one life. Remember what Gandalf said.

I think a lot of people have like tough guy fantasies about shooting a burglar and it always makes me uncomfortable.

On the other hand, if someone was on trial for shooting a Nazi dead I would find them not guilty. Shame that Nazi spontaneously bled out. But at least he's gone before he killed my entire family and friends.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Remember what Gandalf said.

"You haven't aged a day"?

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago

For anyone who sincerely didn't get the reference:

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

β€œFool of a Took”

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm good with you shooting someone entering your house, but not when they're leaving. I don't expect people, especially vulnerable ones, to bet their life that the guy breaking in is a thief and not a rapist or murderer.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It might be availability bias or similar, but there are a lot of stories about people shooting people entering their house or property that should not have been shot.

There was one about a kid who went to the wrong house https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ralph-yarl-shooting-victim-highly-intelligent-gentle-soul-former-teach-rcna80024

There was a story about delivery drivers who got shot at recently. https://www.npr.org/2023/04/23/1171507677/south-florida-shot-at-instacart-delivery-driver-wrong-address. That's actually a good example of the shooter unnecessarily escalating. He could've just... Not shot at them. They were trying to leave.

There's the related story of https://www.npr.org/2023/04/18/1170593395/kaylin-gillis-new-york-driveway-kevin-monahan that page links

None of these are okay.

It's possible there's a bunch of unreported instances of people successfully defending themselves with guns. Scenarios like that where the person on the property really was there with deadly intentions. But I kind of feel like no. I'm pretty sure the scenario of "someone breaks into your house to murder you!" is actually extremely rare. (or if it does happen, it's the police)

We should also take a moment to think on the chilling effect accepting this level of violence has. I don't want this to be a world where I have to worry about being shot because some idiot feared for his life or property.

I was visiting a friend in upstate New York and I was legit worried walking from the train to their place. I wasn't sure which house was my friend's. I called them and had them come out and greet me because I didn't want to risk going to a neighbor's house by accident, and have that neighbor shoot me because they thought I was a burglar. And I'm a white guy.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago (2 children)

When someone who I was supposed to be able to trust kept repeatedly trying to record me naked in the shower, I retaliated once by kicking him hard in the face. I was told that what I did was wrong and violence was never the answer. I disagree.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I agree with you and disagree with anyone who said it's not OK.

Some people will learn with a gentle hand. Some learn with a slightly firm hand. Some only learn when you pick up a 2x4 and beat them.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

As a kid another kid regularly bullied me. Nothing extremely serious... pushing me, grabbing me, putting me in a headlock, stuff like that whenever he felt like it and/or wanted something. Parents and teachers were not able to stop it and I basically just got retaliation. One day when he came at me I simply kicked and managed to hit right in his balls. He ran away crying. Never bothered me again afterwards. Still feels good.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago

When the rich break the social contract.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Punching nazis. Always acceptable, even encouraged.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago

Punching nazis is always self defense.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

It’s kind of infuriating how many un-punched Nazis there are out there.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I want to hear from the two down votes who didn't comment. Fuck nazis and their shitty sympathizers. A punch isn't enough

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nobody else has mentioned proportionality.

When responding to aggression, the response should not significantly escalate the risk. So lethal force should only be applied in scenarios where there is a lethal threat, etc.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Nope. That's the logic cops use when shooting people in the back or kicking a guy in the head who's lying on the ground.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

But that’s all you have in the moment. There is nothing else.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You're not required to risk your life for someone that's victimizing you. You didn't create the situation and your responsibility is to defend yourself and your loved ones.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Violence is justified when it’s needed to protect yourself or someone else from violence. That’s about it, honestly.

I am not a fan of pre-emptive violence.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Self defense, as part of a game (such as wrestling) or in BDSM, when both sides are okay with it and don't face actual danger.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Safe, sane, consensual.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Self dΓ©fense, yep. On a battlefield ? Let these old fuck fight one vs one to resolve their conflict. A noble end is so fucking subjective that I think it would be a terrible idea.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Use of some violence is justified to stop another bigger, ongoing violence.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I would argue to stop other violence, not necessarily bigger, is also justified. It's never allowed unrestricted, especially as the bigger entity, but a tactical or measured response to prevent further violence can make sense.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

Violence is justified when you have no other means left to defend yourself or someone else otherwise.

At which point I would like to add that people will sometimes not be able to see the means they have left because they are put in a stressful situation in a second. I feel like you can't really blame them for that.

Violence as a response should always be in proportion. That should avoid escalation. In an ideal world.

Unfortunately some people won't stop. Those people need to be put into prison where they cannot hurt anyone anymore.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I heard a quote that has really stuck with me, it goes something like "violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived"

I don't really condone violence, but this quote has really gotten me thinking.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I think you would be interested in reading a bit on the philosophy of Thomas Hobbs and "the monopoly of violence".

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

When you are the victim of a loot ninja

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Much more often than I actually do it.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

To protect against violence

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (13 children)
load more comments (13 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

when someone is WRONG on the internet

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

You are wrong

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Self defense but also including defending your rights, freedom, property, and sovereignty

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Self defense

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Violence is a form of escalation. One should never cause a conflict to come to a new height and should only resort to something if in response to anything of that same height.

Also, if a ruler of a nation resorts to that, it shows they're not a great/effective ruler. Fluency in how to rule is determined by how much peace you can accomplish with as little change as possible. Less is more, as they say. If you have to punish people too often like some are doing, you're violating that "less is more" rule.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Only when all other options are ruled out. And obviously, you should not be the aggressor in any situation

load more comments
view more: next β€Ί