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You can point out back and forth violence going into the 1800s. Nobody has clean hands in this conflict.

I do agree the Hamas attack wasn't the start of this. However tactically it was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?

They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.

I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.

They did a little more than simply "fight back." They also engaged in widespread and utterly gratuitous acts of violence and torture in ways that can only have been calculated to trigger an overreaction on the part of Israel. They knew exactly what they were doing and what would happen. They obviously don't give a fuck about their own people.

I've seen plenty of contrarian tankies who are pro Hamas. Often the same "anti imperialists" who hate the West so much they think supporting Ukraine is bad.

Personally I'm of the opinion that both sides are genocidal and anybody with a clear idea what to do there is lying, but I've been banned from [email protected] as "genocide denial" for agreeing with Biden that we should be suspicious of the claimed death numbers coming out of Palestine because both sides have a history of lying about violent acts in their conflict.

@Robin.Net

I would agree, but there are people here on Lemmy and elsewhere who don't distinguish between Palestinian people and the Hamas. It's like a 'tankie' versus 'anti-tankie' game, 'us and them', and nothing in between. If you don't choose, each side accuses you of being the enemy.

Addition:

Just watched this interview (video + transcript). A journalist tells about his visit of tbe occupied territories in Palestine. At some point he arrives at one of the many checkpoints.

And I was walking to the checkpoint, and an Israeli guard stepped out, probably about the age of my son. And he said to me, “What’s your religion, bro?” And I said, “Well, you know, I’m not really religious.” And he said, “Come on. Stop messing around. What is your religion?” I said, “I’m not playing. I’m not really religious.” And it became clear to me that unless I professed my religion, and the right religion, I wasn’t going to be allowed to walk forward. So, he said, “Well, OK, so what was your parents’ religion?” I said, “Well, they weren’t that religious, either.” He says, “What were your grandparents’ religion?” And I said, “My grandmother was a Christian.” And then he allowed me to pass.

So there, even as you just walk around, you seem to be checked 'to whom you belong'.

Ok, so if I just take quite exactly your argument and say: I don't care if Israel is doing it, but Hamas is using violence, and THAT is abhorrent. Then what?

Sorry, but this abstraction and contextualisation is exactly wrong. This conflict is never ever going to be resolved if people do obviously wrong things for some abstract justification from A past they conceive.

Also your conspiracy take which makes you simply discard large chunk of information based on your gut feeling is just crazy. I find it quite audacious to say stuff like that and still fake a reasonable argumentation.

Tons of neo-lib shit takes in this comment section.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

Could you elaborate about which economic takes you'd want to criticize in this comment section, or did you mean to use a different term?

No one ever wants to try it, but I say instead of the US giving Israel money for military aid we instead give Jordan money to host the world's largest fried chicken festival, everyone loves fried chicken. We get Israel and Palestine empty and we give them all "I ❤️ NY" shirts so no one knows where anyone else is from. While they're all gone we completely fucking glass the "holy land." Nuke it all so no one can live there for 200+ years.

Maybe by then the people that exist as Israeli and Palestinians can stop with their religious war bullshit over a plot of land and maybe just get on with living a "good" life.

MAS*H was an amazing show and it was moments like that that had a lasting effect on my world view. I did not realize it as a kid watching it, but I do now.

Ending apartheid, giving the common everyday civilian a future they can build toward, hope for, and participate in. Give people no hope, and they will lash out.

Having a secular government in the region, not a theocratic one, would go a long way to maintaining equality and joint prosperity.

Nothing buys forgiveness like mutual economics.

Forever war. Back in the day, the stronger side would just kill everyone in a march to the sea, salt the earth, and nothing would grow there for 300 years until humans finally scraped the dirt and made a small community again. It's been happening over every religious war, every empire, and every tribe for all time.

Now, we don't do that. But that means bad blood and prolonged conflict essentially forever, in a long simmering he said/she said involving beheadings and rockets. Best thing we can hope for is either a Korea situation, or some sort of "we'll make this area into a national park where everyone can visit", but neither side wants to live anywhere else, and hell will freeze over before all the Palestinians or Israelis are welcomed into the neighboring countries with open arms, lol.

My last bit of hope died when I learned that Hamas executed one of their generals on the rumor that he might have had sex with a guy. The fact that they stripped someone of their 1,000 person command, whipped him, forced him to not sleep, and then shot him three times over something so trivial is a really, reallllly bad sign for any hint of a two state solution. Or worse, cohabitation in a host country. They hate each other to an extreme I didn't think was possible.