this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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This isn't going to be popular, but part of the problem is not acknowledging that 42%. It's fucking insulting, frankly. Plenty of women voted for the bear.
EDIT: In light of reports of tons of guys saying "your body my choice" and shit, I actually regret writing this & everything below.
Like, what the fuck, boys?
52% of white women voted for trump.
Chances are that many of the people crying about men voting trump, are part of a demographic that mostly voted trump.
Trump apparently won the popular vote anyway. Most of everyone who voted, voted trump. But let's focus on men and then be surprised that young men who are very insecure about themselves anyway, feel attacked by the left and choose the right.
Please don't get me confused, I don't think it's good this many men voted for The Stain. Also, 52% of WHITE women, but I bet if you combined ALL women, that number would drop dramatically.
My broader point is, IMO, that 42% never gets talked about so why would it grow, yeah?
Or, put another way, when I talk about women, who are my allies against the Patriarchy, I speak of why I like them (because I do, I LOVE women). They are resilient, strong, resourceful, grounded, etc, all the good stuff, and I try to include all women in that, they are my allies. I try NOT to focus on trad wives, manipulators, "gold diggers", abusers, weirdos like MTG or Caitlyn Jenner , you know, bad people (and there are plenty).
But when I hear about men in the ally space, it feels like I hear all about how awful and dangerous we are and that's it. And there's ALWAYS this group of guys willing to go along with it and point and go "yeah, we totally suck! You guys saying we don't are the real problem!" But, how is that motivating to anyone? It makes me upset, anyways. Maybe I'm just a big emotional baby, who knows?
Anyways, I'm blabbing. Bad habit of mine.
I would rather kill myself than vote for trump, who is a sexist, racist and fascist.
And I am with you. The boarder left is in denial that they are alienating especially young men with that behavior.
Meanwhile the right is actively recruiting young men. The name "Manosphere" for their recruitment cedes that ground to them with no resistance. "That's just how men are, they hate women and vote for Trump because celebrities tell them to." The right is actively selling their ideology to young men, the left isn't.
The left has nothing for them, the American left used to be racist and sexist too, but then they expelled the dixiecrats.
Where do you think all that sexist racist scum came from? You think they wave confederate flags for no reason?
The left has TONS for men. You think men thrive under the patriarchy? Not being able to express emotions, not being able to express fraternal love, not being able to pursue "womanly" or"gay" passions. Men have rarely been more alone and less happy than they are now and left wing ideology can free them.
The left just doesn't reach out like the right does. We could do a much better job.
The online left also doesn't do a great job calling out sexism and other behaviours that uphold the patriarchy when it victimizes men. That's pretty shameful and it's hard for men to feel safe online in leftist spaces. In person I've never had a problem and people have been wonderful. But it's a barrier to overcome that isn't there on the right. The right says "you're amazing because you're a man, join us and regain your rightful amazing place that your deserve". That's a hard message when one side says you're amazing as you are and the other, the side that prides itself of being open and accepting, is proud to tell you you're worse than a bear and you shouldn't feel hurt by that because it's what you deserve.
America enforced an ideal for men that they have to be impossibly strong, stupid, brutish, and horny.
It's only over the past 20 years that that started to break down, but large parts of the country are still infused with those values.
Everybody is acting so shocked because they lived in the nice parts of the country till now.
That's exactly it. The right is telling them they STILL have to be impossibly during stupid brutish and horny. That's basically what an "Alpha Male ™" is. Only the left has an escape for that toxic definition of masculinity, I'm frankly baffled at how we're losing the fight for boys and men. I've never seen the left fumble so badly. But there are a lot of great men on the left working HARD to fix that, so I have hope for the future
The fact that you're using the word "patriarchy" already contradicts the first sentence, lol. Your whole paradigm rests on a foundation of "all the bad stuff is ultimately male-caused". It's your version of original sin, except that ironically there's actually a path to redemption for religion's original sin. Your version can't be redeemed--you'll always see males as the enemy. Your worldview literally requires it.
The left has TONS of one specific thing for men and boys: contempt.
while were demographic blaming you might as well start talking about latinos
An I demographic blaming?
Honest question, why so defensive? This post is demographic blaming, but am I supposed to go, "oh yeah I suck even though I am an ally." Is that it? Is that what you want? Subservience? Or an honest conversation so we can move forward?
I just don't know if its all that valuable. The real change is not that Trump got a bunch of extra votes, its that nobody came out to vote for Harris, the percentages largely are distorted on that basis. Latinos opted to not vote so trump got a higher percentage of latinos, possibly because of Harris' right wing immigration arguments.
The vice presidential debate where walz sat there and agreed with vance was the truth of this election.
Women largely didnt come out to vote for Harris for some reason despite abortion ballot initiatives being largely successful. I've heard enough stories that its possible GOP largely just challenged every woman's signature/voter status on every ballot they could across america.
I see what you're saying, and I actually completely agree with a lot of the sentiment. I think the real issue is broader than simple demographics.
That said, if you feel like the obvious alienation men are feeling from allied spaces isn't a big deal, well, I guess that's something you can choose to ignore at your own peril. I don't think it's a good idea, but I'm just some stupid dude.
That problem seems like it could solve itself...
Face eating leopard party hungers...
Nobody hates women like other women.
I could not disagree more. There's a lot of dudes who really, REALLY hate women. I mean, that should be self evident.
Also, to be clear, there's very good, reasons for folks to be skeptical about inviting men into allied spaces. It's complex. People are complex.
I mean, I'm out. Doesn't matter what I do or how I vote I'm going to be called the enemy by the left anyway. They are adamant that I am their enemy and that they are mine. So that's how it's gonna be.
Lol "I don't want to be a right wing asshole, I'm only doing this because you hurt my feelings"
Dude that's the weakest thing I've ever heard. Being in the left means constantly fighting and being attacked by other leftists for being the wrong kind of leftist. That's what it takes to be on the left and you never had it, it's what the kids call a skill issue.
Go be a right wing asshole all you want but don't pretend you didn't want it all along!
Throw that on the pile of "See what I mean?"
Yes, I've noticed the complete lack of civility, and thus a complete lack of teamwork, and thus an utter inability to accomplish goals. "The Left" doesn't get shit done, so what's the point of tolerating the infighting?
You come talk to me when you've figured out how to get along, work as a team, and are willing to court centrists into supporting you. And not a minute before. If you survive whatever's next.
The fighting ensures we all stay intellectually honest. It's a competitive market of ideas that creates positive, progressive ideology. The fighting is also internal, when one of us is fighting the systems that oppress us we all line up to help in solidarity.
Miss my with your pseudosuperiority and go crawl into whatever hateful right wing hole you call home.
See? I'm the enemy no matter what I do.
Just to understand, you support the right because you think the left are your enemy and actual policy or what they do doesn't factor into your thinking on who you support?
I don't support the right nor do I intend to vote Republican. I'm not sure if there'll be another election, or if the next election held on this soil will be conducted under the same constitution. I don't know if I'm going to finish this decade living on this continent.
I've voted for Democrats since I registered to vote ~20 years ago. Support for the Democrats among young white men has been waning and this is why. More and more of us have been made to feel unwelcome and unwanted and have just...gone elsewhere or stayed home, with the attitude that neither one of these groups is building a future I can live in so fuck it turn on the Xbox. That's about where I'm at right now.
"The Left" is full of people who like to say words like equality and inclusion while really they're dreaming of their turn to be the subjugators. Basically none of whom are in any kind of actual office; the Democrats are a center-right party who have been apathetic and accepting of everything the Republicans have done.
As for the people on The Left, the feminists and the queers and the "It's not racist if it's against white people," I don't have to kill you but I don't have to save you. I didn't lose this election for the Democrats; the people who heard "Hey let's actually talk to young white men on their level and encourage them to vote for us" and said "I've got a better idea, let's spit in their face and demand they vote for us anyway" are the ones who implemented their own defeat. Congratulations. You're on your own.
Certainly seems you're gonna see yourself as a victim no matter what
Man you're gonna make a great right wing snowflake with all that whining and victim complex you've got going on! A+ you were born for this.
Yeah unlike the last administration, who fixed climate change, solved social injustices and totally did not fund a genocide
How would you know it's 52%? Isn't voting anonymous?
How do they know that men voted for trump?
Exit polls.
https://www.statista.com/chart/33408/female-male-us-voters-exit-polls/
white women voted trump, POC voted Kamala, but minority does mean less
I'm not familiar with the concept of an exit poll. I will look it up.
An exit poll is conducted after a voter exits the voting booth. It's conducted by a private organization (usually either a news organization or someone working in collaboration with a news organization) and polls people to find out how they voted. The exit poll is voluntary.
Organizations can then categorize that info based on age, gender, race, area where they voted, and other details. News organizations can then use that info (along with a bunch of other data, including polls conducted leading up to the day of the election) to extrapolate who will win an election in a given area. Typically, despite being somewhat limited in their scope (not everyone at every polling location nationwide is polled), the exit polls are usually reflective of the actual election polls.
Campaign organizers for the next election can also use the data to help figure out their strategies for the next election. For a general example (I came up with it off the top of my head), "We failed to gain the aged 60+ black male vote in this state. We need to study how to appeal to them better in the next election."
Fun Fact: The actual official votes actually take days to count. So these and other types of election polls really help news organizations predict the results even just a few hours after the election polls close, and they're rarely wrong. Sometimes, they're even able to call an election the minute the polls in that area close*. These news organizations often each crunch their own numbers, too, so they don't necessarily all rely on each other's data.
*I should note that each state has its own rules about how and when they release election results. Often, to avoid influencing voters who haven't voted yet, they won't release results (including results from early voting) until polls in the entire state have closed. This is usually the case with news organizations announcing their predictions, too. That's why some news organizations are able to immediately predict some races as soon as the polls close.
Why do you accept that young men voted for Trump. But when you're told, using the same source of data, that white women did too suddenly you're all questions?
In my country voting is anonymous, how would anyone know based on their sex or color or whatever how anyone voted. Here, your vote is considered private so asking a person how they voted as they walk out the polling station is just a foreign concept to me.
What's even weirder is how you came to your conclusions. You really have to explain the mental gymnastics you used, because you're really coming out of nowhere.
Hey, I think his point is rather simple and don't require much mental gymnastics, if you are a little generous in reading it by ignoring how it is phrased.
His thought process is,
You saw the meme and there is no comment or expression by you towards how they knew men voted for trump. You seemingly just accepted it but when I express the 52% statement, you correctly doubted my words and expressed interest in how people would know. Why did the potentially photoshopped screenshot from some random news channel with similar information, didn't trigger the same response in you?
Ofc it is flawed to assume that you weren't wondering about that when looking at the meme. For all everyone else knows, you saw me as someone who could tell you as I was presenting similar information. So their hostility wasn't proper. But the core of the question might be interesting for yourself, which is why I try to communicate it better.
If you weren't wondering about the method of obtaining the data in the meme, you might want to reflect on why.
Literally what started this chain of replies, me asking how one gets these numbers. I learned how Americans come to these numbers now, I just feel there's some hostility in some of the replies simply for not knowing how something works but wanting to learn. It was simply the comment where I again saw someone mention numbers and now I really wanted to know where the numbers originated. I could have asked the same question in a top comment but I think the place where I asked is kinda irrelevant.
Nice anti-masculine sentiment. No wonder they voted Trump. You guys don't hide your disdain as well as you think you do.
Lol I wonder why...
As a guy who used to be a young man and with a lot of young men as friends, retrospectively yeah, most issues were based in insecurities. You really want to be an adult and you feel like you should be one but you don't know how to be one. You go out and want to meet girls and you are scared of the rejection.
You can act like that is "anti-masculine" sentiment but it isn't. It is an understanding of humans.
Just as a sidenote, based on my experience every young adult is struggling with insecurities.
This is a totally different statement.
Saying men are insecure when it's the case across the board means it's fair game to call you out. It sounds like fundamentally we don't disagree though.
As a father of a daughter?
Those men need to go fuck themselves and die.
I am horrified my daughter might have to share a world with that complete trash.
Boooo. As a father of boys and girls it's a HARD world for both right now. Completely different fights but let me tell you that my boys are suffering as much as my girls due to patriarchal expectations for their behaviours and the consequences of not complying.
The patriarchy is the problem, not boys. Don't let your fears push you to hatred of a whole group of people that are just trying their best to be good people. It's hard for young boys to resist the messages of the patriarchy, that was half the message in the Barbie movie. We can hate the behaviours without hating boys. We can solve the problem by tackling boys and men's issues caused by the patriarchy and dismantle it together. We can't dismantle the patriarchy by alienating, scapegoating, and allowing ourselves to hate so much of the population.
Yes, it is, which is why we have to shout that those messages are wrong.
Or better we go back to being quiet and let the old conditions continue, you know, just to make things easier on everyone?
We have to alienate them, alienating is defined as disconnecting, they must be alienated from what you call 'the patriarchy', and I consider a dysfunctional pseudo-masculine culture.
I was just a nerd growing up, and bullied pretty much constantly, it wasn't easy for me either, life is hard sometimes, but if we solve this properly now nobody will have to deal with it again in the future, and it's destroying the lives of boys and girls.
Dude if you're on the left and you alienate boys and men you're not alienating them from the patriarchy. You're alienating them from the LEFT.
The patriarchy does it's own alienating by being shitty to them by forcing them into toxic ideals masculinity and cutting them off from their humanity. We have to provide a welcoming community. We PRIDE OURSELVES on providing a welcoming community for victims of the patriarchy. For some reason some people on the left think that just because the patriarchy is topped by a small group of men that the rest of the men can't be victims or don't otherwise deserve a welcoming space where they can work on dismantling the patriarchy with us.
We're destroying the pyramid from the bottom. We can only destroy the systems of oppression that affect US. If men don't do their share we'll never get to the people at the top. They'll always be out of reach.
I never hid my disdain.
Then don't be surprised when 50% of the population acts accordingly.