this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2024
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[–] [email protected] 45 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Capitalism wants us to believe that it's the only stable solution, because it comes close to the natural order, and that in nature there is only selfish behaviour, eat or get eaten, homo homini lupus and so on. The truth is, this supposed natural state is completely made up and animals and human beings naturally behave much more selflessly than what is expected from us under capitalism.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

Thing is, even the phrase homo homini lupus predates capitalism significantly, and the sentiment dates back to before even the phrase. 'Naturally behave' is a very questionable phrase.

We have the ability to be better and build better societies than we currently have under capitalism. I just don't think an appeal to a state of nature is useful or accurate.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

I think there is definitely a line from early modern natural state theory to today's justification of capitalism, although the argument has somehow reversed itself.

Actual natural behaviour is not even important, since we abandoned that some time ago, and it probably isn't desirable to go back. Its just easier to sell an ideology when you disguise it as natural order.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago

I'd say it's more of an easy to make justification than a real argument. History is incredibly long and full of varied situations in which creatures have survived in many different ways, so it can be mined for examples to support almost anything and claim it to be "natural".

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

People didn't wait for formal capitalism to be assholes.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

The owners use their captured public education and for profit media to turn us on one another and make us monsters.

They tell us avarice/greed, a well known character deficit and social blight for thousands of years is instead virtuous rational self-interest.

They force us to compete against one another rather than cooperate with one another as the basis of our economy, when an economy is meant to be a lowly tool of society for the explicit use of maximizing the efficient, equitable distribution of goods and services for the benefit of the citizens of the society. Our tail wags the dog. We are slaves to economic growth/metastasis we as a society do not benefit from.

The problem is that the sociopaths, mentally ill people literally incapable of empathy, something most humans have a strong need to exercise, that are among us quickly game society using their mental deficit as an advantage to take more than they need and manipulate others into elevating them, then manipulate those below them into fighting one another perpetually to stay on top.

Humans are social creatures. We've been conditioned to act as monsters, condemning our fellow humans literally dying in our streets of exposure and capital defense force brutality as "lowering our property values."

This isn't natural. It's why our nation's mental health is basically its own apocalypse of mass depression, anxiety, and never ending trauma. We are strongly discouraged from supporting one another, as we're supposed to do the impossible, pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, then claim we did it alone. That's the American delusion. 🇺🇸

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago (1 children)

This really resonates with me. You are an excellent writer.

The part about empathy is so real. A lack of empathy is a real advantage in today's world, unfortunately. I think empathy should be one of the most important values a society should strive for, and we decided to make a society that rewards sociopathy instead.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago

Thank you, sincerely.

I know my comment history is basically the same points rehashed over and over as applied to the symptoms of the day we're experiencing, but it helps me feel like I'm holding onto sanity in an insane society to describe the core rot as I see it, and I appreciate your kind words.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 6 days ago (3 children)

After observing all of the animals I've ever lived with, I've come to the opinion (unsupported, I suppose, by any real evidence) that empathy is an important part of being alive. I think every living being has empathy, and humans just got quite good at beating it out of other humans to the point where displaying psychopathic traits became something culturally celebrated.

We've been trained to be this way, and we need to reverse that trend.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 days ago

Altrusim is a good trait to ensure the survival of a species, while being a selfish bastard is a good trait to ensure the survival of the individual. It all depends on the situation.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 6 days ago (3 children)

Meanwhile humans, when put thru the same experiment, realize they can make the human in the unpleasant box pay $ if it wants out. They then learn to create more boxes for more profit.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 6 days ago (11 children)

I dont believe this is inherent. It's not human nature. Its social conditioning as a result of living in a capitalist society.

In a capitalist society, yes. Absolutely a lot of people would do this. But even then, its not everyone.

I live in capitalism but i would certainly not force someone to pay me to let them out of a trap. Especially if they were suffering. And i would never befriend someone that would.

I would think they were a cunt.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

you must suck at capitalism then and would literally never be able to chair a publicly traded company maximizing profits, no matter the cost, for shareholders then. (i say lovingly)

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago

If I'm ever told that I belong on a board of directors at a company, I'm going to Luigi myself. I would have deserved it

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Meanwhile, humans are stuffing other animals into cages to see what happens.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

and then murdering them. good point.

ironic that experiment on empathy done by scientists doing mouse experiments.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 6 days ago
[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

now make the rats comprehend fascism.

Would be an interesting study if that was possible.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Another run of this experiment found rats free those with the same fur color faster or more readily

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

huh, that's definitely an interesting paper to write.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Don't think there has ever been much dispute of a rat's intellect

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 days ago

I don't think this was about the intellect either, just about empathy. Sure, the free rat could learn to open it quicker, but the point is that it did. It didn't eventually figure "eh, nothing in it for me", it repeatedly went and freed the other to the point of routine.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago (1 children)

They're known to be the only animal on the planet more intelligent than dolphins. IIRC only two of them survived though, while the dolphins all left in time.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (4 children)

I like the one where they gave rats a lot of food and space (rat paradise) and let them breed till they were crawling over eachother till there wasnt enough food for them all. When most of them died and food was available once more, the remainders stopped eating and all the rats died.

Rats are interesting but I think the guy that programmed them left in some bugs.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago

Even the creator of that experiment said it was deeply flawed, and that their colony broke down because there was literally nothing to enrich their lives in the habitat. They were essentially going crazy from boredom.

He then went on to design rat experiments that were designed to actually facilitate a fulfilling and engaging life for the rats, and they thrived, from what I recall.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago

Yeah idk if I just watched most of my friends and family drop dead from starvation, I don't think I'd want to go on living either.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 6 days ago

That sounds eerily similar to a situation in Secret of NIMH (the book, not the movie), when the rats

Tap for spoilerbeing taught how to read discover how to open their cages at night and decide to free the caged mice next to them out of empathy, who then aid in their escape.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago (2 children)

A lot of animals are better at solving "prisoners dilemma" situations than us. Most animals would rather work together for the greater good but I guess they haven't heard of capitalism.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Couldn't this be explained by the "tit-for-tat" hypothesis? That selfless behaviour is learned in communal animals, and that its implied it will be you who need help next time?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago

There is a bat species that I think feeds on blood, and they share the food they managed to get in a night, if a bat refuses to share one night then the next time they get left out of the sharing.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 days ago (2 children)

I think we shouldn't underestimate human empathy. The problem is just that we build structures to avoid it. Rich people choose to not see poor people too much or they would feel empathy and be inclined to help them. If the poor are far away, merely an abstraction that is said to exist, then their existence is not felt strongly enough to trigger an empathy response. Surely there are exceptions to some degree, but I think humans are very empathetic and that's one of our great powers.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago

... which isn't news to me.

For a time it seemed that everybody wanted to shit on animals as being way inferior to humans in every way, including lacking empathy emotion feelings and stuff.

But that was always wrong. Who has ever worked with animals be it horses dogs or farm animals knows they have a soul. Well, but also a lot of them are just evil bastards.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Rats live like 2 years.

In two years, they learn how to be better to each other than a large part of the human race.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago (2 children)

I think of it in another way: What these rats display is the natural behavior.

These rats live two years, so they don't have time to learn otherwise. Human greed is a learned behavior, and it takes a lot of time to learn that.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago (3 children)
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[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

the phrase "the free rat would usually save at least one treat for the captive - which is alot to expect of a rat"...

it clearly isn't "alot to expect" if it's automatic normal behavior for their species. It actually implies it's the normal for a rat. It just isn't normal for those humans.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago

If a rat has a better developed sense of empathy than you do, then you've probably made some seriously awful life choices somewhere along the line.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 days ago (4 children)

Empathy over natural selection ftw.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It's natural selection which has born empathy. There are a lot of species which are successful because they are collaborative.

Same story with us humans. We usually prefer groups and collaboration. And look what we can achieve if we put all of our minds and strengths together.
Yet, this hasn't been sufficient to overcome some individuals who live and enforce competitiveness.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

You don't see them fuckng each other over for a goddamn percentage!

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