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The only reason I would be against this is because it disincentivizes removing large parking lots, which are primarily a waste of space. If we could replace some of that wasted space with housing (which could also have solar slapped on it) that would be ideal.
This picture/render looks like it's in Europe, where that could maybe be feasible. In the US, though, I think we need to take what we can get.
I've seen this concept myself built in the Netherlands already, if I'm not mistaken
Parking lots ain't going anywhere.
They are and they must. There is no path forward that doesn't massively disinvest from personal vehicles.
They must, but they aren't. The infrastructure investments to make mass transit preferable in sprawling cities will not happen soon enough. The people in power will not compromise their worship of free markets for climate change. Over time, the market will transition that way, but not any faster under the current system.
US auto-domination isn't even the result of market forces though.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of laissez-faire policy or capitalism in general, but government funded highway lanes are no more capitalist than government funded rail tracks. The current situation in the US required enormous government intervention to establish, in the form of the forced seizure of property to make way for highways, hundreds of billions of dollars (inflation adjusted) to build those highways, mandatory parking minimums for new construction (to store all the cars from the highway), government subsidies for suburban style development and later on tax schemes that resulted in poorer inner city areas subsidizing wealthy suburbs, and zoning laws that made it illegal to build a business in a residential area (which worked together with anti-loitering laws to make it so that if you didn't live in a neighborhood you had no "legitimate" reason to be there. It's not a coincidence this happened in the wake of desegregation.)
Similarly fossil fuel production in the US actually receives direct government subsidies at the federal and sometimes state level (some of which have been in effect since 1916).
Now, we can get into the weeds and talk about how government action is actually a necessary part of capitalism and the intertwined nature of power structures and so on and so forth, but it's important to remember that there's nothing inevitable or natural about the mess we're in right now, as some would have you believe. It required conscious planning and choices, as well as tremendous effort and tremendous injustice to get here.
My comment specified large parking lots for a reason. The amount of space wasted around seldom used, high volume areas (like stadiums) is absurd, and other countries have shown they’re much better served by increased public transit, not giant parking lots that sit empty 300+ days of the year.
Depends. Some agro-PV systems I have seen are 50% transparent. The plants get a sufficient amount of light, and are protected from hail and heavy rain.
I have even seen a prototype where the pillars for the panels incorporate a rail system on which sowing, weeding, and harvesting tools can run electrically in instead of being pulled by a tractor.
PV coverings also trap some ambient heat and regulate the surface temperature better than full exposure, acting like a greenhouse that encourages plant growth.
Folks so set on zero sum systems that they ignore synergies.
Most of the growth in solar has been market driven. It's why Texas has a lot of solar despite them subsidizing oil and gas. It's free, plentiful energy that hits the ground almost every day. If you have boatloads of land that's not ideal for farming, yet not too hot for much of the year, it makes economic sense.
The amount of area needed for solar does not even begin to approach the amount of farm land. People generally aren’t building solar panels on farmland anyways? The largest instillations in the US are in the middle of the fucking desert.
Also get rid of as many parking lots as possible.
There is just so many layers of false and absurd narrative in this.
This post was maybe referring to agrovoltaics?
The largest instillations in the US are in the middle of the fucking desert.
Still this is obviously worse right? We're taking untouched wilderness and turning it into a wasteland of blue silica. Deserts are pretty unique biomes with their own set of diverse animal and plant wildlife.
Farm land is already void of most biodiversity and usually used to grow corn or some other form of unnecessary cattle feed - yeah ideally both get rewilded - but it feels better to reuse an already existing bio wasteland instead of creating new ones..
Plastering agricultural land with parking lots and suburban sprawl is a crime against humanity. This wasteful land use needs to end.
I've done a ton of biking in my area over the last 15 years, and it's been depressing seeing how much former farmland and unused wild area is getting gobbled up by the fucking McMansions and "high 700s" McTownhouses. The townhouses are especially sad - like, you're out in the middle of fucking nowhere (no town in sight) and yet you're jammed in with neighbors on both walls?
Sort of a lemons-into-lemonade situation. But maybe we shouldn't have paved over prime agricultural land to make parking lots to begin with.
Serious question. Why would it ever need to be one or the other?
There's already solar panels on "prone agricultural land", so what? Land use for solar/green power is so small right now, we shouldn't be trying to regulate where it can't be installed.... Put it everywhere.
On your house, above parking lots, on the rooftops of large warehouses... If there's a surface that's exposed to the sun for 5-8 hours a day, put that shit there. Unless there's a good, practical reason not to...
IDK seems a lot like a false dichotomy to me.
"we don't want solar panels on farmland" is just a conservative talking point. It's not actually a problem, but it's something that resonates with their boomer voter base.
I live near a school playground in Vancouver. In the summer the kids don't use it because it's too hot and sunny. In the winter kids don't use it because it's wet.
I feel like a solar panel canopy would be 3 birds with one stone.
Yess, vancouverite here also. How do we get our municipalities to do projects like this? There's so much space that would be perfect real estate for solar canopies
Not all agriculture is done in full sun. Ginseng, coffee and other important crops do best in shade. And you can put the panels up on grazing land. The critters often appreciate the shade which approximates a savanna environment.
And things like vertical bifacial solar panels can work especially amazingly on grazing land that isn't suitable for crops.
Counter-intuitive as they may look, they actually have a number of benefits:
Is it prime agriculture land if no one is using it for prime agricultural land?
Yes.
Land use doesn't determine baseline soil quality, but soil quality often determines land use.
You can install solar panels on agricultural land and still farm on it. You just need to install the panels vertically. It’s called agrivoltaics. The photovoltaic cells can actually produce electricity when they are exposed from either side. It’s just that normal solar panels are opaque on the bottoms side. So for a vertical installation you have to use bifacial panels which are transparent on the other side. And the drop in efficiency in a vertical installation isn’t much compared to a traditional installation, since both sides of one panel now produce electricity, even the shaded side that is only exposed to ambient light produces electricity. And they are much more efficient during their peak hours, since it’s much cooler during sunset and sunrise then the middle of the day. PV panels are less efficient when they get hot.
Certain crops can benefit think from some shade throughout the day:
The study aggregates the effect of agrivoltaics on crop yields at different sites. Tomatoes saw up to double yield with agrivoltaics, while wheat, cucumbers, potatoes and lettuce showed significant negative impacts and corn and grapes showed minimal impact.
I assume that maximal crop output would happen if you just grow things in their optimal climate, but then you rely more heavily on transportation.
Agrivoltaics are so cool!
Or even better: banning all single story parking lots to have less sealed area. Then putting solar panels above the unsealed area and allowing nature to own everything below the solar panels, instead of agricultural conglomerates who pollute the ground water and produce food for livestock.
Every installation has benefits and drawbacks:
France made it mandatory for large malls to install these btw.
The first two "cons" seem like non issues, and could be used for any structure ever.
you must prevent parts falling down
So like any ceiling with HVAC, etc? I was thinking that the coverings were a boon to pedestrians due to the shade they provide on hot days (depends on location, of course)
Depends. Are there lots of tall buildings around the parking lot? Solar panels are made of a lot of rare metals and so we have to be very selective about where we install them to maximize energy output. For this region large open spaces near the equator work well. Not that they can't work elsewhere, or couldn't work over a parking lot, but there's a lot of variables that have to be considered on each individual level.
Solar panels are made of a lot of rare metals
Rare Earth Metals aren't actually that rare, although they do tend to be concentrated in countries outside our traditional western sphere of influence. We're seeing a lot of political wrangling in South America and Central Africa, precisely because countries like Bolivia and the Democratic Republic of Congo have an outsized stock of these minerals. In fact, a big part of the conflict in Rwanda along their border with the Congo stems from illegal mining and black market export of minerals, and the subsequent criminal cartelization that's sprung up around this traffic.
there’s a lot of variables that have to be considered on each individual level
If you're talking about a globally coordinated geo-engineering project to maximize solar electricity production, then yes - building a big band of solar plants inside the Tropics zone would yield the biggest band for buck. But then moving that electricity out again becomes a challenge, particularly if you're trying to get it to mega-cities like NYC or Tokyo or London or Beijing.
If you're just trying to generate local green power in Ohio, without running massive HVDC lines all the way down to the Yucatan Peninsula, then covering the Browns Stadium or the JACK Cleveland Casino in solar panels is as good a use of solar infrastructure as anything.
When solar farms are more than like 0.01% of land utilization then maybe its worth caring about.
For the same land you can power a household or get like 14 pounds of beef. who cares.
Just install solar panels where its cheapest, which is going to be an empty field where you can install a ton and get better labor efficiency during the install. Making green energy more expensive to install only benefits fossil fuel companies.
back of napkin math
Average household is about 10000 kWh annually Solar farms conservatively produce 350MWh/year/acre
so 1/35 of an acre to power a home
roughly 3000 pounds of soybeans per acre becomes roughly 500 pounds of beef/acre.
500*(1/35) = 14.2
You know what parking lots actually are? Land that investors bought and they're waiting for the housing prices to go even higher before then build another empty residential high-rise over it. No sense putting solar panels on a parking lot that's gonna be gone in a few years.
Yeah, plastering parking lots over prime agricultural land was definitely a mistake. And it's hard to wind that back. We just need to make sure new infrastructure and planning reduces car dependency rather than further entrenching it.
Roofed parking would be pretty sick, compared to having your car baked through in the sun. But multi-story parking decks would be even better, or even just parking lots with trees.
It's not like we're actually short on space to build solar panels on. We already have lots of roofs.
To be honest, i dont think we have large enough parking lots where i live. Only at the airport have i seen pretty large ones and we have 3 of those in my country
Parking lots, warehouses, malls, walmarts (and similar superstores), even stretches of in-city highways. There's millions of acres of viable space for solar panels, just no financial incentive to install and maintain it.
USA has vast, seas of parking lots. makes 1000% sense to have them here.
I would imagine a nice bonus of having solar panels on top of parking lots is cars staying cooler in the shade
Improved wool output on farms with solar panels Edit: Carparks also make great places for solar panels. Especially if they can charge the cars.