this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2024
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people not knowing shit about tech is not their fault. I've been using tech for 30+ years, and I'm usually the most tech savvy person in my circle of family and friends, except for a friend in IT.
the reason I'm not getting into Linux is no longer gaming, it's that whenever i see some fuckers talking about Linux it's completely indecipherable with proper names, commands, and jargon. it's straight up technobabble, and when it's not insufferable elitism it's certainly disinviting.
you think people are going to listen to a bunch of nerds talking about distros and shit, using 40 different acronyms within two sentences, and think "ah this is my new home" ... like do you fucking hear yourselves at all‽ you sound exactly like a character from the hackers, and not in a good way.
if anything is preventing people from switching it's Linux users, and probably developers as well. if you make it look like people have to have a degree to get into your shit, they're not gonna do it.
Even more annoying is how many people in the Linux community often recommend distros that are terrible for beginners. People who constantly try to tell newbies to download base debian or arch should be removed from the conversation instantly.
You're 100% right. Linux itself is perfectly capable for a lot of users (note I didn't say all users, or even most users, before people start coming at me with their weird edge case that requires Windows) but the community of both users and devs do absolutely nothing good to get people on board.
That's a lot more prevalent online than in-person.
If you ask a Linux user in-person about Linux, they'll likely oversimplify, but if you ask 2-3 Linux users at the same time, you'll quickly get into jargon. That's not a Linux problem, that's a problem with pretty much every niche interest, people really like to one-up each other in whatever that is. Just try it sometime. Ask someone about their favorite board game, what camera to buy, etc, and you'll get a simple answer. Then repeat, but with a group of people who all like that thing, and you'll get a much more complicated answer.
As with any hobby, there's always another level of depth you can go. The trick is to corner one nerd, and only one nerd.
What is the problem with "jargon" anyway? You can't discuss technical things without using technical language.
If you take a bunch of Windows nerds (yes they exist), and get them talking about group policies and registry edits and powershell cmdlets, you get the same thing.
Exactly. And that's not helpful for your average Windows user. If your average Windows user calls tech support, they'll get a simple answer. If they instead walk into a tech support room, they'll get multiple answers, with the techs trying to one-up each other because that's how they work.
So if you're a novice in an area, talk one-on-one, don't ask a crowd.
They'll get a simple answer alright. In fact, they'll be lucky if they get any answer at all that is not reboot, retry, reinstall or some other cargo cult nonsense from some on-paper "MCSA" in a third world country.
And sorry for going on a rant here, but Windows tech support forums are truly the shit tier of all tech support forums, because very few people actually have the skill to properly diagnose problems in Windows when something outside of the realm of expected behavior occurs. It's all learned behaviorisms instead of understanding: reinstall your drivers! defrag your hard drive! run ipconfig /renew! clean your cache folder! delete your cookies! Never: "look in the system eventlog for an error event coming from this source, and tell me what the error code says"
And 90% of the time, that'll solve the problem.
The other 10% of the time, hopefully you have a decent IT dept at your work or school. I worked at one, and we occasionally had a weird one where we needed to actually check the event logs and figure out what was going on (usually it's faulty HW).
If I was bored, I'd even look at people's personal equipment, provided they asked nicely and they were okay with my upfront "no guarantees" spiel. At that point, I had already switched to Linux 100% on my personal devices (and my work machine was Linux w/ Windows in a VM), though my job was Windows tech support. However, when anyone came in, there would always be a host of "did you try X?" and whatnot, where X is some relatively obscure cli-only tool (e.g. flushing the DNS cache) or some BIOS setting. Nerds love a puzzle, and a visitor bringing a problem is a much more exciting puzzle than whatever is in the ticket queue, and they want to impress the guest with their knowledge (but more often than not, the guest just ignores everything they say).
That lone person will give you a simple answer. It may not be the best answer, but it'll probably solve the problem, though it may cost you more (e.g. you may need to buy some new hardware or spend time reinstalling). But it'll be simpler and probably not overwhelming.
Corner the nerd and grab them by the throat until they explain Linux in sufficiently simple terms. This is what I learned from this thread.
is there nothing bullying cannot solve
dude where do you think I'm hanging out that I'm gonna find people who use Linux in person
We're not some rare breed, you'll find us at grocery stores, bars, on the bus, etc. We're pretty good at hiding though, and we get startled when approached.
If you want to attract a Linux nerd, put a Tux sticker somewhere. Don't do anything distro-specific like an Ubuntu or Fedora sticker, because that'll attract the wrong kind of attention, just a cute Tux sticker. It may take a few days for us to sense it's not a trap, but you'll eventually get someone asking about the sticker, and it'll be a bit quicker if you happen to be a girl (but if you're really cute, it'll take longer).
Linux night isn't Mondays at your local hole in the wall?
It's not like people need the Linux community to install Linux, they didn't need a "windows community" to use windows.
that's because windows is beginner friendly. too much for my taste, but that's how you get people to come aboard. by making it easy for a dumbass to use. simple terms, familiar words, relatable metaphors, graphic interface, installers that do the work for you...
you don't need a windows community to figure things out on windows. i was like 6 when I started using windows 3.x and i did fine because it was either intuitive or it taught me how to do things.
with Linux you do need to refer to communities to even know where to start, and even then the community is fucking indecipherable. nerds don't know how to speak human.
If you started using Linux with 6, or mac for that matter you'll probably find that more intuitive than windows.
Sorry but the graphic interface of windows is jack shit, you have different types of system configuration and legacy menus all over the place, for anything more serious editing the Registry is not what I call intuitive.
I've a friend that had constantly BSOD while playing certain games and he only found the solution in a russian forum suggesting to rename a .dll file in system, that was in 2015-2016. That's not intuitive. The biggest difference is the amount of time that people need to do that in windows vs in linux, in any case people without more knowledge in PCs are completely lost and need assistance.
sounds like you're having trouble understanding the difference between troubleshooting for specific cases vs entry to the OS.
That is one of the most annoying thing that i experienced (and still do) when i switched to linux some months ago. Sometimes I have a problem and I look online to solve it where I see that i have to do some terminal commands explaimed with terms I dont know and maybe edit a file in /etc, only to find out some days later that I could have done it very easily with the GUI in much less time and without that hassle. Most advanced users find the terminal easier, but for new users it is really hard without knowing the commands and can only copy-paste. Over time i started to learn some commands, but doing it so abruptly will just discourage everyone.
Switching to linux was a very good thing I did and I should have done it earlier, but I still keep a copy of windows, the biggest reason is to have a machine that just works if i really need to do some thing and if I have a problem with linux, that and for compatibility, to a smaller extent as I (luckly) do not use need to use THAT programs the just refuse to work in linux
The alternative of showing things in the GUI is not great either because of the number of distros and desktop environment. I imagine that a article/forum response with 30 SS of the different combinations of distro + desktop environment will be overwhelming for the beginner anyway
yeah, thats one of the reasons why most tech support hotlines are less than helpful when you are running linux (except basic configuration data) - the amount of different systen configurations, UI's and versions you can run into is just too big. Windows had at the most 5 different concurrent versions in the wild (Win98/ME/NT/2000/XP was the maximum i encountered in the same timeframe, and the NT's were occurring once in blue moon)
But at the same time is easier an answer more specific things than finding a answer in the windows forums, not only that is easier to search for "fedora 40" than "windows 10 update 22ThatBreaksMyFuckingSystem000"
My personal experience has shown me that the average person calling a support hotline has just enough computer experience to move the mouse and type web addresses into the google search bar instead of the address bar of their browser. you definitely wont get a cohesive description of their issue out of them, and they wont be able to tell you what OS they are using. (i got answers like "Microsoft", "HP" or "Internet Explorer" when asking)
There is no way in hell to guide them so you get specific error messages or fix the issue with them instructing them over the phone when their OS can look and feel a thousand ways and you can't see their screen.
I personally don't have an issue with researching why something doesn't work, but i know about the importance of error messages and how they relate to the used software. But there is no way to guide someone like the described callers through that process when differentiating between the left and the right mouse button is already difficult.
The thing is, I agree with you, and unfortunately it's actually a common misconception how difficult Linux is to use. You can easily install a beginner-friendly distro like Ubuntu/Mint/PopOS and get started that way, it doesn't have to be daunting. It's free to try out and you have nothing to lose by giving it a try, you could always go back to Windows.
It's free? Like you can put it on your current computer simultaneously with windows for free for free, or you have to buy a new computer to put it on but it itself is free for free? Because if it's the first one I should give it a shot. Problem is I'm already learning so many new things currently I'm already a bit overwhelmed as it is but one of these days I absolutely have to because I'm getting so sick of windows's BS.
You can generally install Linux on any computer you want, entirely for free. You don't need to buy a new computer, you just install it like any other operating system.
Also there's often live USB environments where you can boot from the USB but try it out before dedicating to installing it on your SSD/hard drive. You could technically even dual boot but that can have its own problems.
As always, back up your data when trying out things.
For basic things like web browsing, watching videos, and reading emails, Linux is excellent. It's when you start getting into more power-user type stuff where you have to learn more about how things work on Linux.
Hmm thanks for the info. I really do need to tackle it eventually. Problem is I do a lot of art stuff, modelling, animating, music production, painting, etc. I know a few of the programs I need are probably fairly easy to get working but there is just so much in my workflow that the thought of having to work through each and every one of those programs trying to get them set up while also under the stress of the actual work I need to be doing with them is nightmare fuel. I wish microsoft would just stop being wankers but I know that is never going to happen.
I don't agree with much else of what you are saying, but you are quite right here. We should indeed not throw people under the bus because they're not tech savvy and only know how to use Windows. They need to be defended from all those horrible anti-human and privacy invading practices by Microsoft and other Big Tech companies as well, and we should keep fighting and pushing back on those companies pushing their anti-human features, regardless of whether an alternative exists.
BUT, ultimately Linux is the answer, and people are not wrong for pointing that out. It's the only viable alternative that is user respecting by design. It's the only way to free yourself from the abusive relationship between you and Microsoft, because much like an abusive partner, Microsoft will never change. So if you're tech savvy, and you would be able to switch to Linux but for some reason you don't, I have little sympathy for your Windows problems.
Linux is still not viable for creative work, office work or competitive gaming, 3 of the most important uses of computers.
I’d love to see Linux be more widespread, but until I can play any game, use my required abobe products and run Microsoft office it’s pretty much a useless operating system. Open source alternatives don’t exist for many uses, or if they do they’re a significantly worse experience
https://youtu.be/CPRvc2UMeMI?feature=shared
Relevant part at 5:15 but it's all on point. There's a better version somewhere but this was the top hit...
proving my point. Linux users are worse than Mac users in this aspect. but keep wondering why Linux barely finding 4% market share is big news.
Nobody cares what OS anybody runs except for people that are selling OS's.
Linux is nice and private and as complicated as you'd like to make it.
Linux is also the main operating system of "the cloud"
Thus that's the thrust of my joke.
But yeah, rah rah Big Corp important to my personal identity! I am EXACTLY the strawman you need for your argument. Tell me more about my motivations and concerns.
funny you mention strawman literally in the middle of your strawman argument. is that lampshade hanging?
you're right, i shouldn't.
Windows is for people who's life or personality doesn't reolve around their computer. It's just a tool to get things done and that's it.
But people whose life or personality doesn’t revolve around their computer should also be protected from user hostile and privacy invading practices.
They won't care or won't even notice these things. They'll open their laptop, book a holday or find some new car insurance or write a report of whatever and not even think about what the OS does. Unless they're someone who is already extremely sensitive over privacy of their data, you're not going to convice the average Windows user to switch to Linux.
When I was younger I used to use Ubuntu as my main OS for years, tried Arch for a bit - then went back to Windows. I haven't got the time or energy to be fucking about with things like that anymore.