this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2024
378 points (98.2% liked)
Technology
59575 readers
4496 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
These will be useless for EV's, but great for storage. They aren't energy dense enough for what the EV market needs.
Samsungs solid state EV batteries are currently the only positive step towards EV replacement and production vehicles are set to start rolling out around 2027. They're supposed to be lighter, last more cycles, charge faster, more energy dense, and safer than current EV liquid lithium batteries.
The sodium ion batteries will be great for large scale solar storage and house/business solar storage. They should let someone build a solar powered house that could continuously run completely off grid without needing to use lithium batteries that would need replaced every 10 to 15 years.
I can't remember the name but I'm pretty sure some Chinese EV manufacturer has started to make EVs with salt batteries already.
BYD. Seagull or the seal. Can’t remember which one.
they're used in busses afaik. Which makes sense.
Sodium ion batteries on the market right now are about the same weight density as lithium poly batteries from a few years ago. It takes a few years for a newly manufactured battery to find its way into actual EV models. That means the newer sodium batteries have about the same performance as batteries in EVs right now. They're also cheaper and are made of more abundant materials.
Don't write off sodium batts in cars too quickly.
The factory making these is still like 6 years out. The ones on market are like 65% energy dense, and lithium tech has only gained a few percent a year, so I don't know where you're getting your thoughts from. For EV'S, sodium ion is going to be a far shot behind solid state. By the time sodium could catch up to being close to today's lithium batts, solid state will be far cheaper and have a huge power density advantage.
Volkswagen id4 today has a battery of 168 wh/kg:
https://www.batterydesign.net/vw-id-4-82kwh-battery/
CATL launched a 160 wh/kg sodium battery in 2021:
https://www.catl.com/en/news/665.html
They are already gearing up for production of 200 wh/kg sodium batteries, and in talks with automakers about it:
https://www.electrive.com/2024/05/06/catl-gears-up-for-next-gen-sibs-and-global-licensing/
If the id4 on sale now has enough range for you, then a sodium ion version will give the same while being cheaper and having fewer fire concerns. Solid state lithium will be nice, but expect them in more expensive models.
Even if they manage to "gear up" and make it to 200 wh/kg, that's years away and TODAY lithium EV batts are hitting 270 wh/kg. 35% more energy dense.
And you'll spend more money to get that. Not every EV needs the most capacity out there.
If your ev isn't good enough for a road trip, that means for like 90% of you, you have to own another vehicle.
I have such an ev right now that's in line with the numbers we're talking about here. It's good enough for a road trip. We're trying to sell our only ICE car now because we're not using it.
isn't it about an 8% improvement year on year historically?
I double checked. It looks like about 5% per year.
yeah that seems about right, it's still pretty good though.
Over 10 years that's 50% more capacity compared to older cells.
It's actually been about 8% in recent years, but historically 5%. We'll see which one holds, but either compounds to doubling capacity in shorter time than you might think.
yeah, you would expect it to slow down over time, given the ever encroaching theoretical limits of technology, but obviously that depends on how far that is from here. Otherwise you generally expect to see an increase likely proportional to the amount of sold product (more R&D funding) as well as a function of competition, which is pretty high right now.
Why not? From what I've seen, they're about 75% as energy dense as lithium, and a lot cheaper. So if the Chevy Bolt gets 200-250 miles range on lithium batteries, I'd expect 150+ miles w/ sodium-ion, which is plenty for my commute. If the battery costs half as much and lasts 5-10 years, I'd buy that to replace my commuter in a heartbeat. Give me a commuter at $15-20k w/ 150 miles range and I'll buy.
these batteries are a lot cheaper, and a lot more cycle resistant, which is what you primarily do for stationary storage, i think they're probably safer as well?
It would make some EVs cheaper, but they would have less range, and it's probably a little redundant considering you could just use less lithium ion batts instead.
Like the commenter said, we should be focusing on the solid state batts that samsung is fucking with, those are have REAL potential to be significantly better for EVs.
A solid state battery would likely be able to replace my family car, but I don't need that for a commuter, I just need the battery to be cheaply replaceable and enough range to get to work and back. I think we should be looking at both options.
i mean sure, personally i doubt it'll happen, im assuming they're focusing on developing better battery tech first and foremost, though im guessing sodium ions would probably make their way into EVs eventually.
They already are... in China. I'm saying we should do that here in the US. We have the battery plant, so let's put them in some inexpensive cars to replace commuters.
i dont think we've even broken ground on a sodium ion plant let alone making and production testing batteries for the market to begin with. I've got nothing aginst it, and EV manufacturers are probably going to do it, but whatever
Also you can buy a used prius for pretty cheap? The batteries aren't that expensive to replace if they go bad/are bad.
Yup, and I currently drive a Prius. I'm looking at used Bolts ($13-15k used), but I'm a little worried about fire risk (it'll be parked in my attached garage) and battery repair is going to be super expensive. A new sodium ion EV that's much cheaper (say, $15-20k) would be attractive, but I'm definitely not paying >$30k for a commuter.
yeah idk personally i feel like i would just live with the prius until i could get my hands on something truly more accessible to the market, which is inevitable at this rate.
Yup, it would be pretty nice to never have to take it to the gas station again though.
How can a battery be solid state, I don't understand what that means in this context.
You basically replace the liquid electrolyte with a solid one. Wikipedia article about it.
Here's an article about Samsung's battery, and I'm sure we'll hear a lot more about them in the coming years.
current lithium batts are a submersion layer stacking inside of an electrolyte, solid state removes the electrolyte for a "dry" approach, which is in this case, solid state. I'm guessing it's referring to the movement of ions (is that the right term?) through the electrolyte, which is a mechanical process (technically) but i don't know fuck about battery chemistry so dont quote me.
Explain that to the average car buyer who sees the lower number and rules it out.
If they also see a lower price, they'll be more interested.
And this doesn't need to appeal to every car buyer, there's a market for budget-friendly cars with a narrow use-case. 150 miles is plenty for a second car, and would probably not appeal to people looking for a primary car, whereas 250 miles kind of bridges that gap. Segment the market and it should do well.
These would also make bank as fleet vehicles for local deliveries or shuttle services.
Lower price and longer life.
50,000 complete cycles. That's 136 years of complete empty to complete full. Most of these will outlast their mounting hardware.
Sure. Drop them in budget cars, and when the cars are ready to EOL, move the batteries to energy storage.
Yep. And decommissioning time? The sodium is all recyclable without major effort, and the Prussian Blue analogs can be discarded.
or you could also just, make a hybrid, which solves all of the problems, though it's a little more complex.
It's a lot more complex, and would drive up the price a lot. A simple EV with limited range has a lot of value for cases that only need short range.
i guess so but whats your argument for not just buying an older used prius instead
That's what I currently drive. It would be nice to never have to fill up gas again.