A place to discuss positive changes that can make work more equitable, and to vent about current practices. We are NOT against work; we just want the fruits of our labor to be recognized better.
Our Philosophies:
Our Goals
If you need to work to exist, you are working class. Owners make passive income with the wealth they already have. If getting fired from your job puts your basic necessities at risk, you are working class.
And relying on your parents to bail you out does not make you owner class.
And in the real world there is a huge difference between 30k and 250k a year. Made up 🤣
I think it comes down to your level of analysis, or how you define relations. Having been living off $30-40k income for most of my life, I can definitely get the sentiment of the large differences between that and someone making $100k (even $60k), or at least someone living a working class vs middle class lifestyle. But that also goes for someone making $0-10k to $30-40k. Either way, the salience of financial insecurity hits a lot harder for someone with less existing cash.
That said, I also get the sentiment of the nil difference between working and middle class versus the ultra rich who generate huge swaths of passive income and can basically can dictate whether or not the lower classes have enough for rent. Why bother fight against each other when there's a much larger and casual target.
In a more nuanced answer, for solidarity sake we do need to recognize our similarities to work together for a better system. But that doesn't mean we should ignore our differences and privileges either. We should work towards achieving core necessities for all even at the cost of our own privileges (i.e. an opposite tragedy of the commons: those with some threshold excess contribute to the pond). Determining that threshold is another question, with both absolute and relative poverty thresholds with their own criticisms. And not to say that no class hierarchies will form either, technically skilled and heavily laborious jobs should be rewarded, and people will always try to skim a little off the top to get ahead of their own benefit. But in recognizing our differences, we recognize a need to monitor ourselves for the benefit of everyone.
Whatever happened to Marx' "ownership of the means of production" definition? Also, even beyond that, it makes sense to have an understanding that the precarity felt by an upper middle class person is not remotely the same kind of daily struggle faced by a lower middle class person. Not being able to afford property vs. not being able to afford food.
Ultimately it is important to recognize that all humans in the capitalist system are recruited to participate in an extractive, antihumanist global process.
The popularization of the stock market make the "means of production" definition fuzzy. If you own .001% of Tesla, do you own the means of production? What about 1%? What about 20%? Is it 51%? Elon Musk is obviously in the owner class, but he only controls 20% of Tesla. But if it's 20%, then does going in with 4 buddies to buy a $500,000 surface parking lot make you an owner? You only need $100k for that and you might not even be employing anyone, and you're not producing anything except parking. You're not like set for life at $100k.
I assume this is solved by using money as the "means of production" instead of thinking of it as ownership of a business or machine, but that still doesn't solve the fuzzy nature of it, you need to set a border at an amount of money.
It's really not fuzzy. The stock market existed during Marx's time. If you own enough to live off of without labor, you're Bourgeoisie. If you own a small business but also must labor to run it, you're petite bourgeoisie. If you do not own enough to live off of and do not make your primary income via ownership, you're Proletariat.
The fuzzy part is picking an amount to consider "enough to live off of." Elon Musk still works, it's not a question of if you are currently working but a question of whether you need to. But some people "leanfire" retire with $300k in stocks. So is everyone with a net worth of $300k or more part of the Bourgeoisie?
And apologies to the true theorists because I'm sure Marx covered this somewhere but this makes me wonder about the elderly or unfortunate living off of government payments like Social Security with zero net worth...they don't work to survive, but they don't have any money.
And it’s not the owning class, it’s the Parasite Class.
A lot of people own capital without becoming parasitical, and therefore, obscenely wealthy. But becoming obscenely wealthy requires parasitism.
It's basically three classes:
Working Class: the vast majority of humanity. Everyone whose basic necessities for survival and physical as well as mental health is controlled by others. Despite the name, this class DOES include those who are unable to work.
Lesser Owning Class: Anyone who controls said necessities but at least employs or otherwise benefits people of the working class. These aren't necessarily bastards but there should be as few of them as possible.
Parasite Class: The ones whose main or sole source of income is gaining wealth by having wealth already. Examples include landlords, billionaires borrowing against their stock portfolio and others whose enrichment removes money from the general economy while adding only to their own dragon hoard and/or mostly closed systems like stock markets. That these exist at all is one of the greatest atrocities allowed by mankind.
The parasite class includes the welfare class and the corporate welfare class. Not all of the poor people are working class and not all of the parasites are ultra rich.
The parasite class includes the welfare class
Not all of the poor people are working class
That's what people who work for the parasite class keep saying to get us to fight each other in stead of them. Don't fall for their tricks.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t direct linking to an image on Reddit cost your lemmy instance a fair sum of money?
How would that work?
Iunno, I’m not a web dev. Reddit created its video and image hosting services to avoid fees associated with linking content from elsewhere. When you click a link, the site you came from is listed as the referrer. Past that, your question is essentially mine.
thats not how the internet works.
If users aren’t loading the linked content then maybe, but that’s just pedantry.
Its not pedantry, its just not how things work. When you load the link its the same as if you went to reddit manually and browsed to the image. The instance having a link to reddit doesn't mean reddit can charge the instance money now. That makes no sense.
The last color of the rainbow is Purple. Violet and Indigo were made up by Green to divide Purple. Make no mistake, Green is actively working against your interests.
Stfu, putz
I mean, Upper Class certainly exists, working class and middle class are the same thing, and the problem is that lower class aren't working.
Lower class aren't working because they can't. That's why they're lower class. Also, you're wrong because NOW the middle class of working are the lower class being underpaid.
The truth & problem is that the upper class aren't working regardless if they "have jobs" or not.
So let me spell that out. You are completely fucking wrong.
You’re both wrong. The lower class largely is working. More than ever, actually. It’s he system that’s broken, not the people in the lower classes.
