Ask Lemmy

One of my family, and former nurse, is against at least mRNA vaccines, but she also fell down the far right conspiracy theory rabbithole so...

This started in the UK in the 90s with a research paper by Andrew Wakefield linking MMR (measle mumps rubella) vaccines to autism. It was trash research but it for published in the Lancet (a major international journal) before being retracted once other doctors pointed out the massive flaws in the research.

There was and is no evidence of causation - autism happens to be diagnosed usually after childhood vaccines are conpleted but thats because vaccines are mostly in young ages and it takes a while for autism to be diagnosable as its only obvious once children reach a certain age when the socialization aspects of the diseases become more obviously.

However despite it being trash research and eventually being withdrawn, the damage was done. Enough parents of children with autism wanted to believe that this disease was inflicted upon them and have someone to blame rather than accept it is largely genetic and bad luck. A perhaps understandable feeling but that gave an opening for conspiracy theorists to blame the government for a "cover up" even though all the counter evidence and push pack is evidence based and freely unavailable.

Andrew Wakefield eventually got struck off the UK medical register - he was found to have had undisclosed financial interests that would make him millions in selling bogus test kits. The real conspiracy was his but Hes managed to move to the US and make a career as a "victim" and "outsider" to the pharmacy industry.

This whole vaccine conspiracy has been taken up with the US right wing and religious groups. Its a perfect conspiracy for them as it plays into the ideas of the US federal "forcing" then to do things against their will. In this case vaccinating children (which depends on a majority of children getting vaccinated to protect the whole population - herd immunity) and is used as an example of "socialism" vs their preferred extreme individualism. They already rail against being told they cannot indoctrinate children by lying about science in schools (trying to suppress evolution teaching etc) or use the states infrastructure to discriminate against groups they disagree with such as gay or trans people, or be downright racist asis often seen throughout the bible belt.

So the vaccine conspiracy theory is basically one of many tools used by the right wing and religious allies to rail against supposed state interference in their lives. Instead most people who believe in this nonsense are either extremely ignorant and easily manipulated or deliberately using the nonsense to further their own goals. So some of these people are highly intelligent and don't care whether this is true or false - only that it aligns with their world view and goals so they dont challenge it. Some will even know its all bullshit and go along with it to further their own goals.

The covid vaccines has supercharged this debate. The roll out of vaccines with massively reduced testing and safety steps to try and control the pandemic, and then the side effects seen has all helped fuel this conspiracy and grow it within the right wing echo chamber.

There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccination causes autism. However parents are refusing to have their children vaccinated with MMR and now you have outbreaks of diseases like Measles in the US. People will die, people will become infetile - all from a disease that is easily prevented by a vaccine.

Tl:dr: The vaccine conspiracy is a right wing aligned nonsense started in the 90s andnuper charged by covid, and is a sign of the extremely polarised and disinformation heavy nature of right wing US politics (and is seen in other western countries if you dig into it even if fringe stuff)

He may not be joking. My family and people I interact with don’t think vaccinations cause autism. I’m happy to have never experienced or known of anyone getting measles, polio or other ailments most everyone my age have been protected from thanks to vaccines.

Sadly some here believe the lies spread by those who for some bizarre reason are against vaccines. There’s a measles outbreak right now in Texas and New Mexico that’s affecting around 99 people so far. Last year across the US there were 285 cases. Before the fairly recent anti-vaccination crowd formed measles were officially eradicated in 2000.

Now our country’s health leader, RFK (aka worm brain), is one of the assholes against vaccinations. Sad time for sure but we’re not all like this.

Yes, there are genuine idiots in this country that are against vaccination.

There are also a plethora of foreign idiots and trolls spreading misinformation about everything including stances on vaccination. Judging by the quotation you shared it’s impossible to tell if that is an actual person’s thought, though, because it is not written in English.

Back in the 90s a British doctor called Andrew Wakefield was bribed by a pharmaceutical company that made separate vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella to come up with a study to discredit the combined mmr vaccine. He found a bunch of parents in an antivax society and twisted the results of a very weighted questionnaire to demonstrate a link between MMR and the 'tism. It was quickly discredited, but the damage was done. He was stripped of his medical licence after that.

We very, very much wish it were just a joke. Diseases that were basically eliminated in the US are making a comeback. And we just appointed an antivaxxer as our health secretary, who also has proposed sending people on antidepressants and ADHD drugs to work camps for years to "re-parent" them.

It's fucking terrifying here right now, at least for anyone paying attention.

anti vaxxing is a thing that real people really engage in, they are in fact, stupid. But it is unfortunately real, just look into the resurgence in measles outbreaks and TB and shit, that's why.

ur friend very well may be joking, but i can assure it's not a complete meme.

Some anti-vax people I know personally are my boss, 2 of the office trolls, the guy in the garage, the stinky guy who sits next to me, my friend's mom, etc etc. People are fucking stupid yo.

Mostly the right-wing leaning Americans, who don't like anything that costs them money even if it contributes towards a better society. They say they hate Socialism in all its forms, but had absolutely no problem accepting stimulus handouts. They are the pure leeches of our country.

Left-wing leaning Americans tend to believe science even if it comes as a slight inconvenience to themselves, that includes things that sometimes cost them money.

Yes, they do believe it.

In my country which is a third world country no one believe shit like that even my Grand mother who is illiterate and religious don’t believe thing like that and knows the benefit of vaccine

That is because your country has recent, relevant experience with the efficacy of vaccines.

US citizens have been so coddled for so long by being an economic superpower and having access to medications and medical procedures that others do not that those who remember are beginning to pass from old age. This means an entirely new, always coddled generation literally does not know from experience how bad things can get without it. Due to that, and due to American obsession with "free speech" lies and misinformation have flourished, and made people believe that these things are dangerous instead of lifesaving.

Further, it's tied in with how US citizens feel about being "different." We live in a wild cult of individuality where everyone knows that if you're actually really different that things can go sideways for you fast. They'd rather not risk a child being "different" and having autism, and they genuinely don't understand that they're choosing to risk death of their child instead. You can be different, just so long as you're exactly like everybody else!

Our education system is so broken, and our people are so fucking coddled, that they have the opportunity to pretend that these things don't matter. It's literally children tearing down things they don't like because they don't understand.

These are those "weak mean that create hard times." Which is infuriating because anti-vaxxers and their ilk are the people who peddle that kind of bullshit ass saying the most, erroneously thinking they're the "strong men" because they're "willing to stand up to the man." In this case, "the man," being anyone with an education. Notice they don't hate a rich idiot like Trump who does not care for them, but they hate intellectuals "in their ivory towers" (cough academia).

Yes, a society can be so coddled that the stupid resent the intelligent and educated to the point where they reject everything they say. They think they are fighting tyranny because they have convinced themselves we are lying to them to "get one over on them." It's absurd because the very people who put those ideas in their heads are the ones trying to get one over on them. Of course, this has been going on in America for long time.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'

-Isaac Asimov, 1980

It's a very real belief, lot of folks here weren't around to know the "before times" and nothing is ever real until it happens to them.

We are actually that stupid.

Our "leader" is an anti-democratic felon rapist who incited an insurrection and illegally attempted to overturn an election.

It's not a joke.

Americans are stupid as fuck.

So this happened…

He is not joking and while it is most relevant in the United States it is not exclusive to us.

Most people? No, definitely not. Most Americans get vaccinated. More people than you would hope? Yeah, absolutely.

There's so many people here who have crazy views on health and wellness generally. Juice cleanses. Chiropractic. Homeopathy. Fad diets. Faith healing. I think some of it is because people can't afford real healthcare, but most of it is anti-intellectualism and propaganda.

The irony is it was all started with a guy trying to spread FUD over existing measles vaccines to try getting his own vaccines picked up.

As an American that lives 20ish miles from the boarder of Idaho state (on average poor, uneducated, and conservative population), let me tell you its fucking real. Those people are ignorant and proud. It is depressing.

It’s a loud minority. Also not just in America there are anti-vax people all over the world. Mostly in developed countries where they have eliminated diseases like polio. And where outbreaks of measles are really rare. Anti-vax don’t believe vaccines are necessary since they personally never seen diseases like polio. While everyone in the developing world knows that vaccines are necessary since they’ve seen what those diseases can do to people.

You know the meme Hard Times Create Strong Men, Strong Men Create Good Times, Good Times Create Weak Men, Weak Men Create Hard Times Well antivax are the weak men.

This is not limited to Americans. This site is dumb. Idiots everywhere are susceptible to misinformation.

It's both. They actually believe it and it's a joke that they do.

It's a difficult problem to sum up because there are so many reasons this is happening, and I don't think it's all malicious.

At the core there is a general disrespect for any authority in American culture and it's easy to believe stories that a government-mandated medical intervention is somehow not as safe as they say.

It doesn't help that there have been government programs in the past that were harmful and the knowledge was only made public after it was too late. Very few people believe the government has the people's best interest in mind.

Individuals are only capable of understanding a very limited amount at one time, and rely on their tribe to inform them of almost everything else. These days there's a tsunami of information that is impossible to process completely. So it's just human nature to trust a small selection of sources and does usually offer a survival advantage.

So it's not hard to see how smart people can fall for misinformation especially when they are inclined to doubt authority.

The belief is real (but the claim is not).

A doctor claimed a certain ingredient in vaccines was causing autism, while also trying to sell his own version without that ingredient. A massive conflict of interest and he lost his medical licence over it.

But damage was done and people freaked out over it. In fact, the ingredient was removed in order to alleviate peoples concerns but by that point the idea vaccines=autism had taken off and it was hard to stop that spread of misinformation. Especially since the dude doubled down on the stance.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

They actually believe it. Despite no actual link being found. Despite the author of the OG article admitting that he falsified data.

People here also believe that mRNA vaccines will rewrite your genes, that the COVID vaccine sequesters in your testicles and makes you sterile and magnetic, that vaccines are less effective than "natural immunity", that vaccines will feminize you and make you compliant to authority, and that vaccines are ineffective.

I have legitimately heard all of those arguments against vaccines in the wild. For the record, vaccines are one of the oldest and most effective preventative measures we have. There is a reason why the mortality rate for children isn't +30% anymore, it's vaccines, and vaccination programs.

Just wait until OP learns about us taking horse paste during covid

Not just America, up here in Canada too. It's real.

I shit you not; my dental hygienist just confided in me that 5g towers scared her while she was taking my xrays. She thought they had adverse effects on the body. She has an associate's degree. She mentioned they were thinking of dropping thee lead jacket requirement for patients and was shocked when I said yeah I totally agree.

There's a reason why there comparisons out there about x-ray exposure comparing a flight to number of dental xrays. She's better off not getting it multiple times a day, but my annual xrays do no harm to me.

I personally know nurses who I went to school with who are anti-vax.

They are not joking. They are 100% conspiracy-theory loving, in it for the propaganda weak-willed individuals who will buy anything that shows the man is holding them down, and through some simple choices they themselves can make, they have an edge on the world in their own minds.

I told her that I had a HAM radio license and a background in electronics and science and that understanding exposure to ionizing and non-ionizing radiation, there's no serious effects from cell phone towers and that even if there was one in the room with her, the worst that would happen is heat.

People are stupid and subscribe to tribalism. It's very real.

It's Poe's law- sometimes it's a joke, sometimes they're serious, and it's nearly impossible to determine which at any given time.

gulps

MIL100% believes this. Her son was normal until about 3 and then developed seizures and is now brain damage. She blames vaccines and it doesn't help a few other kids in area had similar experiences. She thinks there was a bad batch distribution.

Your friend is not joking. There's an epidemic of disinformation washing across the USA.

And thanks to the disinformation around vaccines, there are also several other types epidemics breaking out...