Ask Lemmy

As a German, I feel you.

Where I live it's hard to see someone flying an American flag and not immediately assume they're a bigot.

Magats did to the American flag what they think gay people did to the rainbow.

Here's an alternative take to upset the boring consensus here.

Patriotic pride (not necessarily nationalism) is the inevitable product of social cohesion. A society which is cohesive is one where people look at strangers and see them as members of their tribe - essentially, as extended family. It's a society where citizens are therefore willing to pay high taxes to fund those strangers' welfare benefits, for example. No welfare state has ever arisen in a country without this essential quality. Almost by definition, social cohesion is closely correlated with patriotism. In the world's most redistributive countries - I'm talking about Scandinavia, of course - you will see more national flags than you might think given their "leftist" reputation. In Sweden, ordinary houses sometime have flagpoles in the garden, I've seen them. None of this is coincidental.

Patriotism can be a dangerous slippery slope, yes. But it's also what empowers strong states and collective action. Nobody wants a patriotism-free world more than the billionaires that everyone hates here. Be careful what you wish for.

It's a good step to consider patriotic ideology as prelude to fascism and tribalism. Welcome in the world of great oportunities, free from borders and labels put with force in your mind. Welcome there, human!

For me it's been longer than that. I am a queer Canadian and anytime I have travelled the US or stayed with friends and seen any group carrying or wearing American flags that hasn't given me the "ick" so much as rung alarm bells that those people are not safe.

Thing is, it's the same thing with the Canadian flag. Any group flying too many Canadian flags outside of Canada Day is likely to be Conservative and anti-queer. Anti-Trans protesters or anti-vaxxers on highway overpasses? Canadian flag. Lifted truck soaring down the highway with a "Fuck Trudeau" bumper sticker - Canada flag. Hoard of protesters demanding book bans, group of people protesting Pride with a "you are gunna burn pedos" sign, antiDEI crusader mob - Canadian flag. It doesn't take long before one starts to draw certain conclusions about a person's character when they wave it around. For those of us trans folk who can it's a sign to hide. A literal red flag.

Amoungst the left up here the flag is a complicated symbol. Many of us on the West Coast see it as a symbol of colonial practice and an insensitive declaration of an occupying nation on stolen territory for people who are still here and whose original sovereignty is still not properly acknowledged. It's not a symbol of pride and if personally used as such it's a sign of insensitivity and work to be done. At the same time I would not say that I am not proud of my Country for how far we've come. We are a nation in therapy who has the opportunity to put the work in to getting over some really bad murderous and selfish flaws and try new things to make things right. When I had an American friend up here it took a bit for him to understand how seriously the effort is to recon with our past and he treated us like a utopia of leftist sentiment but it is like therapy, yeah we might be putting the work in - but we can see how much further we need to go and praise doesn't hit us as "job well done" it's a reminder of how shitty it still is. But if anyone ever thinks that this complicated and nuanced relationship to country would stop us from rallying together to fight to preserve our rights to keep working towards that better future they would be dead wrong.

So I understand pretty well where you're coming from but for a lot of us this isn't a particularly new thing. It just is affecting more and more people as they wake up to realizing how these symbols are used.

In my opinion, true patriotism requires being critical of your nation. A patriot doesn't blindly let their nation go to hell. The Republicans that have take the word "patriot" are not patriots, in my opinion. They've ruined the word. A patriot wants to find the issues with their nation and improve them, not yell about being the best and to ignore everything wrong.

Basically, yes. I feel the same as you about the flag, but because it's been used as a symbol of blind faith, not patriotism. I feel patriotic pride in being critical, not in saying a pledge or anything like that.

On a semi-related note, I’m glad that Superman’s motto was updated to “Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow” back in 2021.

You are not wrong. Seeing jingoism and corporatized patriotism for the sham that they are really opens your eyes to how much of it truly exists. A person who wants no politics in life is often fine with a national anthem, a gigantic flag stretched across a stadium, with jets flying over for a Cheez-It Citrus Bowl and has absolutely no idea that it is political propaganda for nationalism and perpetual war.

In my 50+years here, it has only gotten worse and worse. We've always stuck our military where it doesn't belong, back to the beginning with genociding indigenous peoples here. Now we stick military bases all over the planet and strong arm every other nation into unbalanced alliance. We create conflict for oil and to line the pockets of defense contractors. We aid those currently committing genocide and protect the perpetrators from receiving international justice. Nationalism and fascism snap together like two magnets.

Every time I am told to stand for a national anthem at a professional for-profit sporting event, I think of these things and remain sitting.

The same happens in Spain if you are leftist since the civil war, even before maybe.

Tbh I think flag hate or angst is about as useful/less as flag worship. If you need something to be preoccupied with, why not make it a problem you can put that energy into doing something about where you live - like homeless people or food aid.

I might be reacting this way because I've been getting recent emails from my college about changing the school mascot, which is a "pioneer". When I was there I don't remember even being aware that there was a mascot. But apparently they think "pioneer" might be too closely associated with colonialism and they've decided this is an important issue. My attitude is create a Native American scholarship (or anything that actually does something) - don't obsess on imagery.

It really only feels appropriate to see it upside down these days.

I agree that our history has always been fucked up. But there are degrees of fucked up-ness and we're officially leaving the measurement scale.

It's fucking over.

My hunch – both the Red Tribe and the Blue Tribe, for whatever reason, identify “America” with the Red Tribe. Ask people for typically “American” things, and you end up with a very Red list of characteristics – guns, religion, barbecues, American football, NASCAR, cowboys, SUVs, unrestrained capitalism.

That means the Red Tribe feels intensely patriotic about “their” country, and the Blue Tribe feels like they’re living in fortified enclaves deep in hostile territory.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/

No, you've started to see things more clearly.

I am a US citizen but have been living abroad for the last 4.5 years. I can get by with Norwegian language but didn’t really feel hyper compelled to speak it all the time as English is spoken widely and well here. But especially since the inauguration it’s like, I don’t want strangers to realise that not only am I a foreigner, I’m an American. I try to be a good ambassador through my actions and words, but there’s only so much I can do to distance myself from broad brush strokes of “Americans” anymore and honestly is embarrassing. Also I feel deeply sad that I feel like I can never go home. That place just isn’t real anymore.

Even as a kid, I never understood how the USA flag could be a symbol of "freedom" while conscription exists. Today it has gone from a generally indifferent lie to borderline offensive

Same, I just feel kind of gross now when I see it. Sad as I still love my country, just not what it's doing now.

No

No

If you think every time you see the US flag the person with it is a fascist get off the internet for a while. Most people are not nazis.

Team america, world police

We suck.

Any day you're able to rise above the cult of nationalism is a good day.

Welcome to the club. People from other countries have these thoughts for some time already.

Yes and no.

You can can display an American flag and not be a facist. Facists can’t co-opt the US flag.

The flags that look similar to the American flag, but have a blue line or are black/grey are the ones that cringe me up. Those are actual false flags and are anti-patriotic. Right up there with the “rebel” flag.

Maybe get a tiny little flag and put it in your garden.