this post was submitted on 30 Aug 2024
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I've been happily Windows-free for about 5 years, but lately I need some Win-only software including a few games that don't work at all on Linux. My main questions:

  • How to avoid Windows messing with my Linux install? Having a separate PC is not possible for me right now. I'm considering uninstalling grub and instead selecting the boot device I want from UEFI, idk if this is advisable though.

  • I'm also interested in how to get a Windows install that's as minimal as possible: I don't want to log in to a Microsoft account, I don't want telemetry etc, I only want whatever is strictly required to make my system functional. The one thing I do want is Windows Defender cause ain't no way I'm dealing with an antivirus.

  • Should I go for Win 11 or stick to 10?

Any tips or experiences are welcome!

Ps: I know this information is probably all out there, but I thought a post in this community about it would be useful for others as well.

UPDATE: I ended up going with a regular old dual boot using Windows 10 iot LTSC - there's a few games I wanted to run and a driver as well so I chose to install directly on hardware as opposed to a VM. I created the install media using Ventoy, and UNPLUGGED EVERY OTHER DRIVE during installation except the one Windows was supposed to come on. Afterwards I had to boot in with a live Linux USB (the nice thing about Ventoy is that you can write multiple ISOs to your USB so it came in handy) to manually install rEFInd onto the original EFI partition that my Linux install uses, then I just had to set up the correct boot order in UEFI and everything is working. I also had to fuck around on the boot partition and with efibootmgr to remove all traces of grub so things don't get tangled up which was a bit scary but things are working perfectly now.

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[–] [email protected] 48 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Two physical drives. Install windows first in one, then Linux on the other. If you don't do this order windows boot manager will take over and you'll have to boot Linux from bios.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm not using dual boot anymore, but when I did, I always selected the partition from BIOS, which was totally fine for me. Are there arguments against it?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Only an issue if you don't disable fast shutdown on Windows. A hibernated system might get surprised if another OS moves files about while it was asleep.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

You make windows sound like a hibernating beast.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Will it maybe work if I just unplug my Linux drive during the Win install?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I'd recommend having the Linux drive unplugged during the windows installation. Windows, for some reason, will install the boot loader in an entirely different drive than what you selected. There's no question or prompt to prevent this. The only way to easily prevent this is to just have the one drive plugged in.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

One problem with that is that you will end up with two EFI partitions. This is not supported very well by anything, really, so you will run the risk of Windows messing with the wrong partition anyway.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Yep, dual disks with the Windows installation done first is how I did/do it. GRUB/systemd-boot worked just fine from then on, and I am not on Windows 11, so I didn't get hit with that fuck-up Microsoft did just a few days ago.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 months ago (2 children)

My aproach was to use two drives. I had Windows on the first, then disconected it and installed Linux on the second. That way I dont have grub and use F11 to open the bios bootloader to select the system I want.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Simple and reliable has a lot to be said for it.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago (4 children)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

I also recommend rEFInd for the bootloader if you don't want to set anything up (and risk messing up). You don't need to configure your boot entries, it scans for boot options and shows them with a graphical interface, so your Linux and Windows should just show up.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

My first line of investigation here would be virtualization. It will solve the "don't mess with my Linux install" problem and will let you use the windows apps you need at the same time as the Linux apps you normally use. Also VMs have all their other useful features like snapshots and portability.

I did this in the distant past and it was quite convenient having the VM instead of a dual boot.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, VMs are a good route since the OP didn't mention gaming.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I should have, gonna edit the post

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

@friend_of_satan @recarsion yes, I’ve been using Windows 11 as a guest OS in VirtualBox for two months, after I switched to Linux as my main OS. I like it much more than dual booting.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

If you insist on dual-boot: two separate physical drives.

Otherwise: use linux with a windows vm.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago (1 children)

One thing I've been trying lately that's a bit different: I happen to have an old SSD that had an enclosure with it (kind of like this) which essentially turns it into an external USB drive.

I then used Rufus to install Windows on that drive, using the "Windows To Go" option and also checking the option to not allow Windows to access the internal drives. That way, my laptop can just happily run Linux by itself, and if I need to use Windows for anything I can just plug the drive in, hit F12 on boot and choose to boot from that drive instead. The added bonus is that Windows also can't mess with anything on my regular system or monkey about with the boot loader.

I've only had it on there for about a week but it seems to be working perfectly fine so far!

Oh and also Rufus gives you the option to start with a local account already set up, so you don't have to do the MS online account bullshit. And then after install I used ShutUp10 to turn off as much telemetry as I could.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Hm this sounds very interesting, it would be pretty convenient, I'll look into it

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

The most painless way to dual-boot is to install something that's not Windows alongside something else that's not Windows.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

I would recommend going for the IoT LTSC versions of Windows.

https://massgrave.dev/windows_ltsc_links

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Is there a reason you need a dual book instance instead of a VM or even WINE?

Unless you need direct access to hardware and if you have enough RAM, you can probably avoid dual booting altogether.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I exhausted the WINE route, some games I want to play don't work with Proton no matter how much you tweak (the first time I'm running into this in a few years) as well as some additional software. There's also a driver I need to run that's technically available on Linux but it's a reverse engineered solution developed by one guy so who knows if it's gonna keep working.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Dwarf Fortress runs fine in Linux. Are you telling me there are other video games?!?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

developed by one guy so who knows if it’s gonna keep working.

If that scares you, don't look too far behind the curtain on any open source project.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)
  1. Get 16gb of ram and CPU less than 5 years old.

  2. Install Windows 11 in a VM

  3. Install the virtio drivers from the Fedora project link

  4. Profit

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

How good are the virtio GPU drivers?

I’ve only really messed with them on servers with their ancient ass GPUs from like the early 2000s. Back in 2015 I remember running GTA 5 on a 2013 iMac with iris pro. In windows I got 30+ gps at 1080p, and through parallels I got about the same FPS at 720p.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

If by "these days" you mean a motherboard that supports UEFI, then it honestly doesn't matter anymore. Your board controls the boot order, and there isn't an MBR for Windows to mess with anymore. Just plan out your partitioning careful before hand, and if you plan on using a lot of files in both OS's, make a plain storage partition that is easily mounted under Windows (NTFS does not count).

Honestly, aside from a very scant number of apps or games, there isn't a real need to dual boot anymore. If you can't run something under Proton or Wine, having a Windows VM will get the job done.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

NTFS does not count

Aren't NTFS and exFAT pretty much the only option?

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

The default actually works pretty well these days.

Messing with the EFI partition, for instance by attempting to have two of those on separate disks, will probably cause you more pain than Windows will. As far as I understand, only one EFI partition can be configured in BIOS as the boot partition, so you will have to change the configuration in BIOS whenever you want to boot to the other OS.

Windows does have a history of changing the default EFI bootloader once in a while; however your chosen bootloader is still there, just not marked as the default anymore. A Windows app like EasyUEFI will let you change the default back.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Like others have said, I just use two drives, and I can boot into Windows with GRUB.

However, these days, I just do a VM with GPU passthrough. (I installed a second graphics card in my PC just for this.)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Swappable hard drives

I have a ThinkPad with easy access to the hard drive. It's one screw, remove a small panel and slide out the hard drive, slide in a new hard drive and reinstall the panel and screw. It all takes about a minute.

I have a drive for my Linux setup and another for windows.

I gave up setting up dual boot setups because I'm not as skilled or capable and I've lost entire setups in the past due to updates and changes and it was constantly frustrating for me. So I figured that just swapping hard drives was the easiest for me. No configuration, no changes and neither OS can interfere with one another.

I use my Linux as my daily driver for everything and windows when I need something from windows. I only ever use windows maybe once a month or once every second month. I spend more time regularly updating windows than in actually using it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Windows doesn't mess with the Linux install anymore, that was with BIOS boot. Just make sure the EFI partition is big enough so you can fit both.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Does it not? I've seen posts about grub being borked after Windows updates, or was that only on legacy BIOS systems?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

can report UEFI installs of PopOS and Mint were recently borked by a Win11 update.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

As far as I know, that only stops out of date versions of grub that have a certain vulnerability from running that would allow escaping Secure Boot. Meh. It doesn't touch any Linux files or anything and you can boot if you turn off Secure Boot so you can fix it. Long shot from what used to happen where you could only have one boot loader installed at a time so installing Windows would wipe what was there before.

(and by fix it I mean replace grub with systemd-boot)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

An update borked my eufi setup last year, good riddance, Microsoft.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Not true as of late

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

a bootable removable medium that can display and chainload all the installed OSes

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

I added a second SSD to my windows laptop and installed Linux on it. I configured the BIOS to boot from this second SSD. Painless!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Tiny10 on a VM

I'm sluggishly in the middle of the same thing.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

If your windows software works in a vm or wine then that might be a better choice for you.

The only thing windows will do with to a Linux install anymore is mess up the boot. People still say two separate drives is the optimal choice to prevent this but it really doesn’t save you from anything but fat fingering your own partitions during the install process and if the disks are the same size/interface/manufacturer it doesn’t do much there either.

So as has always been the case since dual booting existed: install windows first, saving the space you want to use for Linux then install whatever you want. Have your distributions preferred method of repairing failed boot on hand so that when something breaks unexpectedly you can fix it. Often it’s more than a boot repair tool, but an entire bootable environment that can be used for all kinds of purposes.

Use uup dump and rufus to make a windows installer and put it on a usb. I specifically recommend rufus as opposed to dd or other normal way of doing things because it has special options regarding windows oobe and requirements that will be invoked on use.

It doesn’t matter if you choose 10 or 11. Both can be had in ltsc channels. Dealers choice, you’re the one with software that needs it!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Might as well go for Win11, you're going to have to deal with it next year anyways.

Windows doesn't do minimal, it does whatever the hell it wants. There are some OOBE tricks to get a local account working.

I have used the privacy.sexy app to strip down some of the most obnoxious Win11 bits - be warned that you have to disable defender to have it work. Is it doing bad things? Is MS doing incredibly shady shit with their detections? Who's to say? When I turn on Defender afterwards, everything seems "fine".

There's no need to get rid of grub, or play games with different boot drives. Get to know how EFI works. Look at efibootmgr's output - that's pretty much all that the firmware knows. The firmware has multiple entries consisting of a drive (magic device number), a program path (EFI\grub\grub_x64.efi), and maybe a string to pass along. There is a priority list (0003,0001,0002) which MS occasionally likes to re-arrange.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Using modern UEFI booting with a 1GB shared ESP and grub2 has worked just fine for me in the last 8 years. os-prober has always just found the Windows install and generated the necessary boot entry for grub. Windows has never trespassed into the Fedora or Ubuntu folder of the ESP as far as I can tell.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Getting a second drive just for windows I think is a good approach. If you were to do so, it's important that you remove all other drives while installing windows, otherwise the Windows installer will put its boot files into whatever existing EFI partition it finds.

Then using something like https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat you should be good to go with a relatively clean setup.

To have a local account, I use Rufus to setup the usb installer in a way that it automatically creates the local account, and it can also disable the secure boot and tpm requirements from the installer if you want. Though I think rufus is a windows program only. I know there's the "OOBE" approach for the local account, but I haven't done that before. That could be an option too

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

I put windows 11 live on a £20 USB drive, and it hasn't messed with my Linux install at all

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Having another PC with minimum requirements only for Windows?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Others have answered your dual-booting question pretty well. However, along the lines of "minimal" Windows, it's not generally recommended to fuck with the system as that can break things. There are scripts that can strip a lot of the problems, though. I can't remember any off the top of my head.

As for not requiring an account, I have old ISOs of Win11 and Win10 where the unplugging my ethernet cable trick gets me around signing into a Microsoft account. Not sure if it works on the ISO you get from Microsoft now, however. And if you have built-in WiFi, I think there's a way to disable it in the command prompt before you install.

Edit: Win10 is going to hit EOL in the near future. I am going to use it until then. It's got a lot fewer concerns (for me) than Win11, unless Microsoft keeps filtering Win11 shit into it.

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