this post was submitted on 31 Jul 2024
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[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago (7 children)

Let's be real.

Rowling started out making a fairly bog standard magical kids book. It was all about the fantasy of being a wizard, and relied on tropes so old they get found in La Brea.

This isn't a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with that kind of kid lit.

But she wasn't a good writer. She was mid tier at best. So the eventual success of the series got beyond her abilities. While the last book was much better overall than the first few, it still relied on shoddy world building because she had chased sales.

She tried to turn a kid's light fantasy into a YA fatasy-adventure. To an extent, it worked. And I don't mean that it wasn't successful, she had a hit on her hands because the idea behind it all was brilliant. It pulled from a long history of British youth fiction, and added in fantasy and magic and a ton of tropes.

But from the perspective of a coherent story in a coherent world, ignoring the success in terms of sales, it was cobbled together without a plan, and it shows. It wasn't until maybe order of the phoenix that she had a plan for how the story would end, and she had to do a lot of hand waving to make it happen.

Again, that's okay. Nothing wrong with a bit of light fiction. But, it had cultural impact way beyond its original scope. So it draws the same kind of analysis that something like LOTR does, and it just can't compare. It barely holds up to comparisons with Narnia, and Narnia at least kept things vague and mystical without trying to get into the mechanisms under the hood.

For whatever reasons, Harry, in the books, long before the movies, resonated with kids. So the series exploded. And now everyone pokes at it like it was ever supposed to be literature, with any serious thought behind it. It was all broad brush strokes on construction paper from the beginning, expecting anything in it to hold up to scrutiny is like expecting politicians to be honest and up front. It is what it is.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago

And now everyone pokes at it like it was ever supposed to be literature, with any serious thought behind it.

terf lady doesn't help herself by incessantly insisting that everything was planned from the very start

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Let's be real here, she started off just writing a fun story, think nothing of it, and it became a cult. There's two ways to go about this; 1) milk it for everything it's worth, or 2) let the fans go apeshit on fanfic without providing anything more. She chose option 1. Cause money.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Arguably I think all the flaws combined with its popularity is why there are so many HP fanfics out there and they are at least part of the popularity of the work.

It's like confidently posting a wrong answer on the Internet, people can't help but want to correct you. Same with her story, which fuels a good chunk of the dialogue and discussions about it.

If it was bad or unpopular no one would care. If it was extremely well written, with little to no plot holes, people would like it, but that's kind of it. Harry Potter just seems to have the right mix of good ideas and poor execution while remaining popular enough to be relevant to generate seemingly endless efforts to fix or improve it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (9 children)

I always say - to defend the series (which doesn't need too much defending, it's the most successful book series after the old testament > new testament > Quran trilogy). The magic of Harry Potter is that all of the fantasy magic works exactly as well as it needs to right at the moment that it's directly in front of the readers eyes. As you mention, as soon as it leaves the view of the characters in the story, it literally blows up into nonsense. However, as the story is being told the magic used is awesome and just what the plot needs at that exact moment to move along.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

To be fair, Harry Potter is probably more logically consistent than the Bible is.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

That's like saying that an arthritic dog probably walks faster than one without legs.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

"But from the perspective of a coherent story in a coherent world, ignoring the success in terms of sales, it was cobbled together without a plan, and it shows. It wasn’t until maybe order of the phoenix that she had a plan for how the story would end, and she had to do a lot of hand waving to make it happen."

"But she wasn’t a good writer. She was mid tier at best. So the eventual success of the series got beyond her abilities. While the last book was much better overall than the first few, it still relied on shoddy world building"

Excellent explanation. The first HP book is excellent. It really sucks you in. After book 4, the quality declines and they become slogs to get through.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It's not meant to be a well sewn up world building project. It's literally two different worlds smashed together on a bunch of napkin notes. None of us read it for its intricate political maneuvering or realistic magic system.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

And that's why I bailed around book 5. Around that point I decided I wanted more realism, so I switched to Tom Clancy and JRR Tolkien, and I have been reading more "realistic" fiction ever since.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

You brought up a really good example of a fantasy world with boundaries by mentionning Tolkien. It is heavily insinuated in the LOTR books that "magic" is not "endless posibilities magic", it has more to do with special aptitudes and/or knowledge depending on the race (like elves or wizards). It's not like Gandalf can just snap a finger and transform someone into a chicken. I know it limits what you can do with your world but in the case of HP it opens the door to endless plot holes and contradictions.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

It goes along with Sanderson's Laws of Magic, specifically rule 1:

An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic.

It works for HP because it's targeting kids, but adults get frustrated because Rowling just makes up stuff each book. For example, why are port keys not a thing before book 4? (it would be a lot easier to take a portkey to Hogwarts than a train) Because they're a plot device at the end of book 4, and almost never used again.

Rowling uses magic way too much to solve problems in HP and she does so inconsistently, but that's totally fine because the point of the story is to appeal to kids and inspire imagination (and kids love quick solutions to problems), not to appeal to adults.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Really interesting concept you brought up, did not know that law and yes it makes perfect sense.

And I totally get your point, but it is still an issue to me considering that she wanted to keep the audience hooked as they aged. As someone put it in another comment, in the first book, Harry is eleven, it appeals to kids ~11 y.o, and so on. But, and I speak personnaly, by the fifth book it was already too disjointed for 15 y.o. me. Her books are like a Jojo's Bizarre Adventure book/episode, but without all the corny humor and the self-awarness that makes it fun.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Idk, my oldest kid is 10 and has finished the whole series. She may have intended kids to grow with the series, and that was certainly true when they came out (I remember my cousin reading the books as they came out), but I do think they have limited appeal to more mature audiences.

That said, I do still read YA novels, and I'm definitely not the audience, so I'm sure there are plenty of older kids and adults who aren't as bothered by plot holes and whatnot.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

If you like realism in a fantasy setting, Delicious in Dungeon absolutely delivers. They take world building to a whole new level of detail.

It's a bit light on the high level stuff like global politics and history. But for an example of the level of detail they went for (keeping it vague to avoid spoiling anything), one problem they solve involves a character knowing how dragons are able to breathe fire. Even though they have magic in this world, they still came up with a plausible physical mechanism for how dragons breathe fire and wove it into the plot.

At another point, a character gives advice about best practices if you're about to turn into stone.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The only thing I don't like about Delicious in Dungeon is that there's not enough cooking. Maybe Senshi could teach us about preserving food in various ways - pickling, brining, salting, smoking, maybe even canning - in future episodes.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Even better if it happens accidentally due to some monster just being a monster around some food they initially think is ruined but then realize was just changed.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

Yeah! Maybe there's a monster plant that makes vinegar and it gets on some onions and cucumbers

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

I'll have to check it out, thanks!

I do appreciate realism, but I think I care more that magic (or technology) use is proportional to its impact on the plot. For example, I love hard-scifi stories, but only where the details truly matter for the plot (e.g. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress) and not as much where it distracts from the plot. I also don't mind totally unrealistic settings, provided the magic/tech isn't needed to drive the plot (e.g. The Wheel of Time 1&2 is more concerned with character development than how the magic actually works).

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

First of all, it's a kids book.

Second of all, it's a poorly written kids book.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago

Eh, I think it's pretty well-written. It hits all the important parts of a good kids novel series:

  • fun to read
  • few immediately obvious plot holes (that a 10yo would notice)
  • easy for a child to imagine that they're in that world

We need more series like Harry Potter with high engagement that also promote creativity.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

The SuperCarlinBrothers made a convincing case that Felix Felicias is just a placebo on steroids.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Plot holes? In Harry Potter? Why I never!

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Well the person who wrote it thinks “Lolita” is a touching love story so…

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

I think nothing beat the fact Slytherin still exist after the founder basically came out as a racist and want racist rule to be enacted, and also only accept student that's either a racist or speak parseltongue, and also the student literally live in a dungeon that's dark and gloomy. You'd think after a few years Salazar left the other founders will take note and change the way the house pick their student and the living condition of the student quarters, but nope.

And you'd think this is a story about the danger of tolerating the intolerant, then the writer became the intolerant lol.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

I'm pretty sure the reason they keep to themselves is that the last time magic was public knowledge they were killed en masse during medieval witch hunts, or something. Been a loooooong time since I read the books.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Great and Powerful comic.

I would also add:

  1. French were doing same
  2. Bulgarians(?) were doing same
  3. (in Creatures) Americans were doing same
[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

still exist after the founder basically came out as a racist and want racist rule to be enacted

let me know how the republican party does after novemeber. IF they lose

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

I think nothing beat the fact Slytherin still exist after the founder basically came out as a racist

That was the most realistic part.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

You would think so, but look at the US and some other countries with racists of different kinds wanting to “go back to the good ol’ days” or wanting to push the societal problems to muggles (or immigrants/POC in the case of the US).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Yep. Based on similar history it probably wasn't even that the other founders disagreed, they just maybe thought he was taking it a little far.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I mean, the whole thing is this big fever-dream written for kids; yanno, a fairy tale. At the same time, our author is someone whose internal moral compass is pretty twisted up. So, logical consistency left the building long before pen was put to paper.

Also, fledgling authors take note: this is what happens when you flagrantly defy thermodynamics over and over again. Nerds will rip your work to shreds.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (4 children)

It's even simpler than that. The author sets the rules of the world. If those rules change, are ignored, or characters behave in a way that disagrees with the rules the reader's trust is betrayed.

That's why people get a stick up their ass about plot holes. They were told things work a certain way, but characters miss an obvious opportunity or break an already established rule. Lack of effort on the author's part makes the reader feel like their time hasn't been respected.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

JKR is a TERF with terrible writing skills and worldbuilding. The idea of a comfy, cozy british castle where you could fulfill your magical dreams and get sorted into a house is an incredibly fun self-insert universe, just like Pokemon, Star Trek, etc.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The idea of a comfy, cozy british castle where you could fulfill your magical dreams and get sorted into a house is an incredibly fun self-insert universe, just like Pokemon, Star Trek, etc.

Which makes her a great children's book author. Her world building did exactly what it was supposed to do: encourage imagination.

Her political/social views and appeal to adult audiences are irrelevant. I think she's a fantastic children's book author because she did the thing that's most important: get kids to read.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Her political/social views and appeal to adult audiences are irrelevant. I think she's a fantastic children's book author because she did the thing that's most important: get kids to read.

She weaves her awful views into her books, though, from racist caricatures of Jewish People represented by the Goblin Bankers, to the anti-labor organizing section of the books with the odd Hermoine/Elf revolt. It's entirely relevant.

The world has exciting and fantastical properties, yes, and she did get children to read, absolutely. However, you cannot unti her views from how they were woven into her works.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It was written for kids who don't think that deep

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

By a lady who don't think that deep

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