Let me guess... Hamas made them do it.
this post was submitted on 25 May 2024
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Not exactly. But if you disagree with their decision you're automatically antisemitic.
This is a direct result of a fascist (Ben Gvir) being the minister of "national security". This guy wasn't allowed to serve in the IDF due to his involvment with groups designated by the Israeli government as terrorists.
Bibi literally allied with fucking terrorists to stay in power.
Holy shit
Ben Gvir was known to have a portrait in his living room of Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish extremist and Israeli-American mass murderer who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre in Hebron.
In December 2021, Ben-Gvir was investigated after a video surfaced of him pulling a handgun on Arab security guards during a parking dispute in the underground garage of the Expo Tel Aviv conference center. The guards asked Ben-Gvir to move his vehicle as he was parked in a prohibited space. He then drew a pistol and brandished it at the guards.
In early October 2023, following the arrest of 5 ultra-Orthodox Heredi Jews for spitting at Christians and outside churches, Ben-Gvir said it was "not a criminal case" following arrests.[60] Prior to entering politics, he defended Jews spitting at Christians as "an ancient Jewish custom".
“My right, my wife's, my children's, to roam the roads of Judea and Samaria are more important than the right of movement of the Arabs," said Mr Ben Gvir, using a biblical term for the West Bank.
He then addressed Mohammad Magadli, an Arab Israeli journalist in the studio, saying: "Sorry Mohammad, but this is the reality, that's the truth. My right for life comes before their right to movement."
BBC. He has a number of repugnant views. There won’t be peace until BB’s cabinet is out of power.
Wtf. Dude literally said "my family's right to movement is more important than yours" and then turns it into "right for life vs freedom of movement".
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This guy wasn't allowed to serve in the IDF due to his involvment with groups designated by the Israeli government as terrorists.
As bad as the IDF is, I can't even imagine how much worse the IDF would be if they let actual terrorists in its ranks.
They already are terrorists they are already killing a huge amount of innocent for a political end. It's exactly how terrorism is defined.
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Why wait for the food convoy to go into Gaza when you can attack them before they go into Gaza?
There is very strong evidence the truck driver had a Hamas tunnel network going from the engine of the truck to the exhaust.
It's despicable behavior like this that makes it really hard to convince people that it's only their fascist government that's atrocious and should be sanctioned.
They're really not making a good case for not being treated exactly like Apartheid South Africa and Putin's Russia..
Please don't lump all Israelis together with a small group of extremists which are currently supported by our fascistic government.
This is no different to saying all Palestinians are bad and should be sanctioned because of Hamas.
Please don't lump all Israelis together with a small group of extremists which are currently supported by our fascistic government.
I'm not. I'm saying that these extremists make the others look bad to the point that it's difficult for non-absolutists such as myself to argue against collective punishment. Apologies if I was unclear.
This is no different to saying all Palestinians are bad and should be sanctioned because of Hamas.
Yeah it is. Whereas Palestinians are resisting (sometimes in less than optimal ways) a genocidal occupation force, these Israelis are safe and still trying to help that same force starve innocent civilians to death. That's VERY different.
Apologies if I was unclear.
Don't worry about it.
Yeah it is. Whereas Palestinians are resisting (sometimes in less than optimal ways) a genocidal occupation force, these Israelis are safe and still trying to help that same force starve innocent civilians to death. That's VERY different.
Hamas invaded areas which aren't considered occupied, and kidnapped, killed and raped innocent people. I don't care if they call this "resistance", it's terrorism.
I disagree with your view of the IDF, but even if I did agree, then Hamas and the IDF would be fairly equivalent in this case (except for the fact that the IDF has more firepower).
Hamas invaded areas which aren't considered occupied, and kidnapped, killed and raped innocent people. I don't care if they call this "resistance", it's terrorism.
We were specifically talking about NON-Hamas Palestinians, though, not that terrorist group.
I disagree with your view of the IDF
It's not "my view". It's the facts of the matter as per international law.
Hamas and the IDF would be fairly equivalent in this case (except for the fact that the IDF has more firepower).
No. Just no. One is one of the most advanced and well-funded militaries in the history of the world and the other is a terrorist group usually firing unguided rockets. While both are despicable, there's absolutely no equivalence.
Especially since the IDF isn't fighting Hamas. They're eradicating the civilian population using Hamas as an excuse.
We were specifically talking about NON-Hamas Palestinians, though, not that terrorist group.
I'm saying unaffiliated Palestinians who support Hamas are supporting terrorism, not resistance.
It's not "my view". It's the facts of the matter as per international law.
Considering the fact that multiple international courts are currently dealing with this issue, it's not as obvious as you present it.
Especially since the IDF isn't fighting Hamas. They're eradicating the civilian population using Hamas as an excuse.
Are you claiming Hamas was fighting the IDF on the 7th of October? It is well known in Israel that the reason so many civilians were hurt that day was that there was a lackluster response from the IDF, so civilians had to fight terrorists themselves.
Also, Israel evacuated 800,000 people from Rafah before entering, why do that if they just wanted them to die?
Even in the current government the voices calling for resettlement of Gaza are an unpopular minority.
You can claim the IDF has no regard for human life, so they don't care if they kill innocent Gazans (I would disagree, but whatever). But to claim that they try to eradicate them is crazy.
You can claim the IDF has no regard for human life, so they don't care if they kill innocent Gazans (I would disagree, but whatever). But to claim that they try to eradicate them is crazy.
The IDF absolutely does not care if it kills innocent civilians. You do not establish invisible "kill zones" in a civilain occupied area and indiscriminately fire on men, women and children if you care about human life. These zones are so ubiquitous and so ill policed that the IDF killed 3 jewish hostages that escaped captivity, hostages that striped themselves shirtless, called out in hebrew, waved white flags, had large signs saying they were escaped hostages, and still the IDF ran them down like dogs to kill because they violated a invisible "kill zone" boundary.
Also, Israel evacuated 800,000 people from Rafah before entering, why do that if they just wanted them to die?
After months of intense and very public pressure and a first in decades withholding of weapons from the US, and after very publicly murdering humanitarian aid workers that cost Israel a great deal of international support for this war. Even then they barely setup any services like tents, water or sanitation for those 800k forced refuges moved into a "expanded humanitarian area," i.e concentration camp, all while your ministers like Ben Gvir call for the literal genocide of the Palestinian people to continue.
These are not the actions of a country that cares for civilain life.
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Forgive but where are the Israelis protesting the genocide? I only see them supporting the IDF and screaming anti-semites at people that disagree with them.
We've had many protests against this government since the war began. And a lot of people in Israel are very angry at the IDF since they are also responsible.
Edit: Btw, where are all the Gazans protesting what Hamas did on the 7th of October?
@That edit was your attempt at some dark humour?
If Gazans stand in a big group anywhere without permission from the occupiers, they can get bombed and sniped and chased with drones.
The majority are internally displaced and homeless. A significant number are now starving to death. We know from doctors - before the IDF rounded them up and imprisoned them in Sde Teiman (Israel's version of Abu Ghraib torture detention) - the number of burn injuries, amputations, etc civilians are facing.
And you dare to sit there and compare these to the uninjured, well fed citizens of a richer nation that all have their own homes to sit in and organize their protests about how they want their hostages back?
Palestinians want their hostages back too. The thousands of children whose parents have been killed and vice versa want their loved ones back too.They are HUMAN BEINGS just like you. If Israel had treated them as humans and observed international law instead of turning into a rogue genocidal state the civilians of Palestine may have had the same chance for expression that you do yourself.
Try for some compassion.
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Maybe because they're busy trying not to die of hunger and avoiding the genocide coming for them.
Where are all the Palestinians outside Gaza protesting this then?
What do you think is a higher priority for them right now?
This is typical "but do you condemn Hamas?" bullshit. Most Palestinians in this world do not support Hamas. But Hamas are not the ones murdering their fellow countrypeople right now.
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I don't see anything saying all Israelis are bad. Seems to me you're reading more into it that what is there.
Yeah you're right, he didn't say all Israelis are bad. But he did insinuate that enough are that it makes sense to sanction all of them, which I take issue with.
The white South Africans did not starve to death when we boycotted them over Apartheid. The Israeli people can stand a few sanctions over their democratic choice to allow openly genocidal actions.
Personally the first sanction I would like to see against Israel is a complete embargo on buying or selling any weapons, armaments, or other military equipment. This would not hurt the innocent but it would hurt arms dealers and genocidaires alike.
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You voted for this shit, you all are complicit.
I hate israel so fucking much. But it’s important to note that it’s really not all of them. Some of them are good people too, and not realizing this can lead to bad trains of thought. The same kinds that lead to discrimination of my people.
Free palestine. That includes Jews.
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Only 34% of Israelis voted for this government in the last election.
70.63% of Israelis voted in the last election (and it's worth noting that around 85% of ultra orthodox Jews in Israel voted).
The vote was almost a tie between the current coalition parties and the current opposition parties (it didn't end up being a tie due to dumb disagreements between two small left-wing parties, which led to one not passing the threshold at all this time around).
Likud got 23.41% of the votes. Yesh Atid (Yair Lapid's party) got 17.79%. 10.84% went to Religious Zionism (Ben Gvir and Smotrich's party). 9.08% went to Ganz's party. 8.25% went to the Sephardic ultra orthodox party, 5.88% went to the Ashkenazi one. 4.48% went to Yisrael Beiteinu (Liberman's party). The United Arab List got 4.07%. Hadash (far left party) got 3.75% of the vote. Labor got 3.69%. Merez (a left wing party) and Balad (a secular Palestinian party) were only a few thousand votes from passing the threshold, getting 3.16% and 2.91% of the votes, respectively.
Often when it seems one of Merez or Labor won't pass, they join forces (also true for other small similar parties). This time around they didn't, and Bibi used that chance to create a horrendous coalition which most Israelis aren't happy with, which isn't surprising when you consider that it got only 48.38% of the total vote. When you consider that only ~70% actually voted, you get that the actual percentage of Israelis which voted for this coalition is around 34%.
Our political system is a mess, I know.
Official source (in Hebrew though): https://votes25.bechirot.gov.il
Edit: Btw, Gazans voted for Hamas, too.
Edit: Btw, Gazans voted for Hamas, too.
Interesting point. Far fewer Gazans voted for Hamas compared to the number of Israelis who voted for the current genocidal government of Israel.
Let's see... the median age in Gaza on Oct 7 was 18. The last election in Gaza was in 2006. That means half the people now in Gaza weren't even born yet.
Of the 50% who were alive then, only around half were of voting age in 2006. Therefore 25% of the current population were eligible to vote in 2006.
According to Wikipedia, turnout in Gaza was around 74%. 74% of 25% = 18.5% In other words, just 18.5% of present day Gazans actually voted at all in the last election.
In that election Hamas won 46.5% of the vote, winning in North Gaza, losing in places like Rafah.
So the number of Gazans who actually voted for Hamas is probably somewhere around 10% and mathematically can't be above 18.5%.
If you don't support sanctions against Israel on the grounds that not everyone voted for this then you shouldn't support Israel's collective punishment of Palestinians either.
I don't support "collective punishment" against anyone, ever... The top comment in this thread is mine, where I literally wrote Bibi allied with terrorists. How did you reach the conclusion that I agree with how the war is being handled?
I'm glad that you don't support collective punishment of Palestinians.
That's the common ground between you and me. Where we disagree is in what steps to take to stop it. I'm so old that I boycotted Apartheid and later had the very moving experience of being thanked for my country doing that by people who had lived through it.
From some of your comments in here I think you have trouble seeing the enormity of what is happening to your fellow human beings in Gaza right now. In recent years sanctions have been used to halt an attempted genocide in Ethiopia and to weaken the power of the genocidaires in Myanmar. It's actually usually only when superpowers (China, USA) stand in our way that they become less effective.
From some of your comments in here I think you have trouble seeing the enormity of what is happening to your fellow human beings in Gaza right now.
You're likely right to some extent, but do consider that not all of what you hear happening in Gaza is actually true.
In contrast to probably 99% of Lemmy, I actually served in the IDF, I even have friends who are currently in Gaza. I know a lot of reports by the "Gaza Health Ministry" (Hamas) are straight up bullshit, I know for a fact that UNRWA has been infiltrated by terrorists (even if people around the world find this hard to believe).
I also highly suspect that either the IDF or the government has decided to be much less careful in this war (when it comes to making sure innocents are safe), which I think is terrible.
But I also don't see a way forward for the state of Israel without the destruction of Hamas, because otherwise we will just repeat this in a few years, and I don't think Hamas will stop attacking us even if we are sanctioned by most of the world (I also fear that in such a scenario, a government might rise to power in Israel which is much more extreme than even now).
But I also don't see a way forward for the state of Israel without the destruction of Hamas, because otherwise we will just repeat this in a few years, and I don't think Hamas will stop attacking us even if we are sanctioned by most of the world (I also fear that in such a scenario, a government might rise to power in Israel which is much more extreme than even now).
The only real solution that doesn't involve genocide is ensuring that Palestinians are happy, healthy, and have the opportunity to thrive. Terrorist groups like Hamas don't just poof into existence. It takes a mix of desperation, grief, and hopelessness (and sometimes megalomania) to reach that point. Groups like that can't be defeated or destroyed with bombs and missiles. Inflicting more pain and suffering creates more desperate, hopeless people who don't feel like they have anything to live for or chance at living a good life. If the IDF kills every member of Hamas in this war, another group will rise because of all of the mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, friends, and family that have lost their lives as "collateral damage".
If you want to halt Hamas and similar groups, your government needs to stop doing the recruiting efforts for them. Hell, with time, effort, and prosecuting those who perpetuate the violence, the Palestinian people could be allies.
I agree with you, but the issue is groups like Hamas don't just poof out of existence either; and Hamas has shown they can't be trusted to act in good faith (before Hamas' surprise attack, there was actually a fairly long period where it seemed in Israel that Hamas' is appeased by various benefits given to Hamas and Gazans, like giving some permission to work in Israel, and allowing money from Qatar to enter the strip. Israeli defense in turn moved troops away from Gaza and lowered the combat readiness of the surrounding areas, which led to the disaster on the 7th of October).
And unfortunately, I don't see Hamas allowing a more reasonable group to from in Gaza while they're still in power.
Hell, with time, effort, and prosecuting those who perpetuate the violence, the Palestinian people could be allies.
I hope I'll be alive to see this
Thanks for your comment. Fwiw I get most of my information from credible NGOs, and even if UNRWA was magically 100% terrorists (implausible. I've met an Israeli woman who worked as a humanitarian in Gaza and I think she had a pretty good idea of that space) I wouldn't feel any differently about the Gaza Genocide. Nothing excuses it.
Similarly, preventing civilians losing their lives will always take precedence over preventing civilians losing their jobs.
I'm from a former colony myself, and history has taught that the only ways Israel can avoid being attacked by the people it has dispossessed would be if it either:
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stops colonizing/settling/occupying/blockading and makes reparations or
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genocides and displaces the population to a tiny fraction.
It's disappointing that in this day and age most Israeli citizens prefer either option 2 or else the status quo of ongoing occupation and violence, but it's not that unusual.
Personally, I think Israel is highly unlikely to turn back from genocide now. The only hope is for international intervention.
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