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This is yet another one of many examples that affirms the correct answer to "does israel have a right to exist?" is no. No nation has an inherent right to exist, but certainly a nation as horrible as israel should not exist for many reasons, including morally, just like how nazi germany has no right to exist.
For everyone wondering if this means genocide against Israel -- no! Of course not! This means the nation -- that is, the government, the borders, etc. -- needs to be reformed.
That's some really fucked up thinking, on par with invading forces. You're essentially advocating for a genocide, including the masses of people in Israel who are constantly protesting against this war
Even I, a person who lives in East Europe, who has been affected by Russiay entire life, with Ukraine invasion to top it off, do not wish harm upon every single russian.
If you start thinking like them, then what makes you morally better?
He said Israel, not israelians. but it would either be another diaspora or their neighbors will take revenge and continue the cycle of hatred.
Which might be one of the objectives as well. "You can't let our people in the hands of the arabs, they are gonna kill us all in revenge for us killing them!". Ensure the israeli state exists because without it, their people die.
So by your logic, due to how much problems the US is causing to it's neighbours and in the world right now, it is morally acceptable to destroy USA and make Americans look for new homes?
Bruh, I sometimes feel like reddit is mild compared to whatever the fuck I walked into
If we were in the 18th century, for sure. for a country more than 200 years old? No. Israel is not even a century old. There are barely 3 generations there.
Decleration of independence does not equal people suddenly appearing there on that date. 3 generations? What? You clearly missed your history lessons. Why do you think archeology keeps finding Jewish artifacts on Palestinian land? The Jewish people have been living there for at least 5000 years. The Land of Israel, being under different names under different world powers, has existed for so long even the bible revolves around it. You can start by searching for "12 tribes of Israel"
There have been multiple attempts to remove them from those lands, like when Roman empire invaded and then re-named their land to Palestine to spite Israel, but.. ehh, this got too long
You gotta wonder how Israel will get out from under netenyahu/spelling. He’s their sadam now
Soooo Mao then?
Nope nope nope. Putting the blame entirely on Netanyahu is like putting the entire blame on Trump. Both are symptoms of an underlying society and many people enabling and condoning that behavior. Look at stats, watch translated videos of their media, read Israeli and non-Israeli historians. This shit ain't new and some would argue is exactly what the Zionist state was created to carry out.
Oh youre not wrong but sadam wasn’t in a vacuum either is my broader point. These personalities have always existed in every time period in human history. It wasn’t until the cognitive revolution of he 50s did we start to develop archetypes of personalities and on a broader macro sense the cognitive behaviors of societies as a whole.
Saddam quickly went from ruling by popular support to ruling by scaring the shit out of any opposition.
Netanyahu and other Fascists in Israel still enjoy comfortable majority support in Israel. Even if people protest against Netanyahu, they are largely still in favor of ethnical cleansing and genocide against the Palestinians. Most people in Iraq didn't need reeducation when Saddam was toppled. The vast majority of Israelis need a reeducation and be confronted with their crimes at large and have hundreds of thousands of their war criminals permanently locked away in order to cure the Fascism that has deep roots in their society now. It will take decades to safe them from who they have chosen to become.
Populism always leads to fascism pretty much every time. It’s the third part of the fire formula. Air fuel and spark.
Capitalism populism and power becomes fascism.
I think you’re getting into dangerous territory with that thinking. People are not a monolith, even when an outspoken and visible portion of the population are monsters. Secondly, you say “Nazi germany has no right to exist,” but Germany does. Painting with that broad a brush and speaking in such absolutes opens the door to horrible acts. Because the zionists speak the exact same way about Palestine. That’s where that thinking and language can lead you.
Germany does not have the right to exist. The German people have a right to self determination, like any people in the world does. This right is not tied to any specific state.
It is also completely absurd to define such rights to a specific state. Any specific state needs a specific government, a specific territory and a specific people. The only thing that carried over from the Nazi era was the people. A different government was formed on a very different territory. If you claim "Germany has a right to exist" in connection with the Nazi Reich, that Germany would have to include large swaths of what is todays Poland and Czech Republic.
Meanwhile there was no Israel in 1947. There was no Israeli people in 1947. The entire people is a construct, that only started to become a reality through 80 years of ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Palestinian people. Now that they are a people is a reality. That this people thus has the right to form a fascist state and deny the rights to the people who they have uprooted is nonsense.
If the US was to invade Canada, drive the Canadians north of the arctic circle and then claim this is US-Canada now because the filled it with millions of their own settlers, that does not create a "right to exist" for US-Canada.
Theoretically, of course I agree with you.
But saying an existing country has no right to exist, while discussing the very real problems of said country, while said country does, in fact, exist, is treading on incredibly dangerous, straight up genocidal ground.
How can you guys not see the problems inherent in that, while half of the people are arguing against the existence of fucking nuance? You all can’t be that dense.
Irrelevant in whether or not it has the right to do so
Don't be an idiot, it's nowhere near the same thing
If that’s what you think, extend the thought experiment. Say you get what you want, Israel stops existing tomorrow. What happens to everyone there?
Easy: that's not what I want
A different government rules over them
The state does exist. The state is inherently built on crimes. Saying this state must cease to exist does not mean that the people should cease to exist.
Again taking Nazi Germany as an example. The German Reich ceased to exist. There is no Führer, no Reichschancellor, Reichsgovernment... Incidently there is a movement called "Reichsbürger" (citizens of the Reich) that proclaim the Federal Republic of Germany is a company and not a sovereign nation, so instead they claim the Reich to still exist. But it does not.
There was no genocide against Germans to make the Reich cease to exist and while there were ample use of strategies that by todays standards are war crimes against the Reich, the responsibility for starting the war laid with the Germans.
If we apply this to the state of Israel. Israel started to ethnically cleanse the area. Israel is inherently an Apartheid regime and the current state would never obey by international law, end the illegal occupation, give back stolen land, recompense the victims, punish the criminals and give equal rights to Palestinians living inside the internationally recognized borders of the state of Israel. The Israeli constitution itself says that Israel is a Jewish ethnostate, thus by the constitution Israel is a racist and criminal state in violation of international law.
You cannot reform this state like you couldn't reform the German Reich. The state and all of its institutions need to be rebuild from the ground up. And then in a way that grants equal rights and justice for all living between the river and the sea.
It's unclassy to reinterpretively paraphrase someone with a block quote like that.
There is no equation of victimhood here. Zionists have stolen Palestinian houses and land.
There were Nazi Germans occupying houses in Poland which they stole from Jews. After the Holocaust those Nazis were expelled back to where they came from. In this case from Nazi Germany (which included Poland) to Germany (without Poland)
My dude, the whole thing is a settler colonialist project. It has no right to exist, and no word salad attempting to introduce nuance into a black and white situation is convincing anyone otherwise. This isn't Reddit.
The fact that you think no nuance exists in the Israel Palestine conflict is genuinely insane.
The Palestine-Israel conflict is famous for people assuming there is a clear solution, and then later admitting they were wrong.
There is only one clear solution but people don’t like it, it’s the elimination of all Zionists by all means necessary
Genocide is not the answer. Assuming "zionist" includes "any jew living in Israel," I hope for humanity's sake that you are trolling.
The children need to be reeducated as I will not cross that line (which makes me morally superior to every Zionist) but otherwise I agree.
The only nuance there is to be had is for Israelis born there who are advocating for complete integration and reparations under a one state solution. Bar that, they can fuck right off.
Agreed.
Even the allies didn't deny Germany had a right to exist just its then leadership and most individually culpable
Hey man what happened to Germany and specifically Berlin after the war? Just checking
It didn't cease to exist nor were its people required to sonehow all flee to France
That’s not what I asked I asked what happened, not what didn’t happen.
Except that the Nazi nation state no longer existed after World War two. It was dismantled and replaced with a new one, it wasn't even contiguous it was carved up and divvied out to allies who had different ideas about what the new state should look like. The Nazi state didn't have a right to exist, and neither does any nation state. They're just legal constructs and should be discarded when they are harmful.
This division was a mistake we undid ultimately and their is continuity between pre ww2 Germany, nazi Germany, and present day Germany is many or even most respects.
We punished its leaders and some of the worst criminals. We did not declare the state which included millions of people to simply not exist render its land to France and drive millions into the sea or extermination.
Its people have every right to remain.
If you condemn all the people for the actions of their government then you are no better than they are.
Saying that the nation state of Israel doesn't have a right to exist isn't the same as saying the people of Israel don't have the right to exist. A nation state is just a legal construct, it doesn't have human rights. The people who live in any region are not the nation state, and they have a right to exist, but they do not have the right to create and maintain an ethnostate that oppresses other people.
this is your strawman judging you
the comment is referring to a government