cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/15795315
this post was submitted on 03 Dec 2024
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In which things is someone allowed to think differently from the US Democratic party before they are expelled from the left?
And fuck Putin, btw. But there are people with widely diverse points of view on an incredibly amount of matters, that can have common grounds on many other issues. And, at least for me, they'll need to try harder that just being putin's useful idiots to be expelled from my definition of what the "left" is.
Especially on a matter as complex as Ukraine war. That I gladly support arming and helping Ukraine, and my country will keep arming and helping Ukraine when USA steps back once Trump sits in the office. But I still understand that is a complex issue and that different points of view are expected. I have mine, which is support for Ukraine. Others may support Russia on this. But as long as we both agree on other issues I won't deny that. If they support end of capitalism, workers rights, LGBT rights or gender equality we would have common ground on those topics.
Russia invaded Ukraine. That's a war of aggression. Russia is wrong in this. Don't pretend like it's a "complex issue" and "we need to listen to both sides".
No, we don't. Russia is the aggressor, they're in the wrong, they need to fuck off from Ukraine and Putin be held responsible in a court of international law. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.
"We could have common ground..."
Yeah I don't need to have any common ground with people who actively lie, spread disinformation, undermine legitimate information, deny international crimes, deny genocides, spread values of authoritarian nations.
I don't even identify with any left-right division but I'm definitely not what you'd call an "enlightened centrist", because that's a garbage position for garbage people who are afraid of any sort of confrontation.
About a bit less than a hundred years ago there were discussion like "we need to appease this Hitler fellow, seems awfully mad" "maybe if we don't protest over him taking the Sudetenland, he'll calm down?"
Would you be intellectually arguing the merits of Hitler's invasion of Sudetenland as "a complex issue, you have to consider both sides"?
No. Fuck that. Take a stance.
I have a stance. I did say I support Ukraine. Same I say I'm clearly leftist.
But you don't need to stop being able to think just because you support a side. You can support a side and still understand the complexity of the issue, and that you are supporting the lesser evil.
I still support Ukraine on this. Mostly because Russia initiated hostilities, and because I think the European Union is a better place to live than Russia. We protect people's rights better. But it's a complex issue because there are people in some Ukrainian regions that does not want to be Ukrainian anymore, and that does not want to be forced to move away from Russian influence. And this is clearly a proxy war between two empires.
I have my stance, but I'm not blinded by it.
I don't need to think "all opinions are equal" to be "able to think". I don't need to accept Russians saying they've done nothing wrong and to "consider it from their point of view." Russia broke international law.
It's not a complex issue.
Oh yeah the old "no there's definitely people who actually want to be Russians in the parts of Ukraine Russia invaded illegally so they should probably maybe be able to keep those illegally invaded areas." No. Is there documentation of, say, Ukrainian people voting in Russian elections? That might imply they consider themselves Russians, right? Yes, there is documentation of that.
Occupied Ukraine encouraged to vote in Russian election by armed men
Stop being an apologist to Russia.
Do you understand that by calling me Russian apologists, when I've said several times that I support Ukraine, is just making my point?
You see enemies even in your allies.
If we are naming moustached men I remember some paranoid mustache men that also thought everyone was his enemy. How did that feel? Ah?
Last paragraph is just a joke, I don't actually think you are a stalinist just because you are so radical in your views, but you get me.
You can say you support Ukraine, and still be apologist for Russia. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
"You are so radical in your views."
You're literally an apologist for Russian authoritarianism. You're spreading the propaganda that occupied Ukrainians actually want to be Russians. That is bullshit that Russia has been spreading for years. It's not controversial either. You just keep yourself ignorant, and probably didn't even click on the link I pasted, and definitely didn't read it. And you have the nerve to talk to me about the "ability to think"?
Here's more.
Ukraine war: Russia claims win in occupied Ukraine 'sham' referendums
Like you can't... or won't call bullshit on things like ^ that?
You supposedly being "for Ukraine" doesn't really matter when you're touting Russian propaganda, consciously or not.
I hope why you understand that while I'm willing to talk about this topic. I'm not willing to talk about it with you. Knowing that nothing productive will come from it.
You didn't put yourself in a position where anyone would be willing to talk about anything with you unless they 100% agree with you.
So there's no point. Why have a debate with someone who is not willing to debate? Your mind is settled.
I'm just saying that seeing enemies, even in your allies, and being so hostile toward anyone who doesn't agree 100% with you does not lead to good things.
We all have our red lines. I have mine. But nations or national sovereignty are just not one of my red lines. Or just being in favour of one empire instead of another. Not great red lines to have imho.
It's incredibly ironic that you talk about agreement and openmindedness and "being able to think".
You can't discuss this. I hope for other reasons than lying about supporting Ukraine. But you did argue something that is Russian propaganda. Perhaps you knew it was, perhaps you didn't. But it definitely is.
Now you're refusing to answer whether you believe those things like Russia claiming a >99% voting turnout and support for Russia? Who's the closeminded person here. I'm willing to find out what's actually happened. What you're doing is pure ad hominem against me. You're saying "no-one will ever talk with you". But.. they do, all the time. People like you making statements like that are always wrong, and the worst is that you have to know it as well, but still decide to write that.
It would literally be dangerous to Ukraine to accept Russian propaganda as equal to fact. So if you actually do support Ukraine, perhaps stop spreading Russian propaganda (even if you do it accidentally)? If you refuse to look at the facts, then just don't talk about the subject at all. But do not assert things like "oh yeah they want to be Russians" and then have a tantrum about 'not being allowed to have a polite disagreement' when someone shows that's complete and utter bullshit.
Think whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
If you feel happy thinking that you spotted an evil Russian spy, so be it.
I'm just unwilling to talk about people who made clear that anyone not agreeing 100% on everything with them is the ENEMY, and HITLER supporters, and a RUSSIAN APOLOGISTS. And all the funny names you had against me.
Have fun in your echo chambers.
I would have a great debate about the conflict in Ukraine, because as I said, it's a complex issue, and complex issues are worth talking about from a wide variety of points of view. Just not worth it with you (knowing that as soon as I say something that's not 100% what you think you'll start throwing names and making Hitler comparisons), sorry.
Childish absolutism. It's genuinely very ironic you talk about openmindeness and "ability to think". (Try using the words "capacity to reason" next time, sounds smarter.)
You're strawmanning and adhominimininiminimionimg while ignoring literally every single thing I said. You're the stubborn one who isn't open for discussion.
Saying "Ukrainians in occupied Ukraine want to be Russians" while we have clear evidence they're being forced at gunpoint to vote and Russia publishing figures saying >99% voter turnout and support for Russia? I should be like "okay, yes, I respect your opinion and we can respectfully disagree on this, as it doesn't matter that what you're saying is dangerous disinformation and what I say can be factually backed up very easily"? That's what you want?
That would be "open discussion" to you?
No, you clearly can't have a debate about the conflict in Ukraine. You're actively avoiding debating it, and the one thing you said about Ukraine, I looked up and tried to "discuss" with you and you had a tantrum and deny everything and refuse to address how Russia is forcing Ukrainians to vote at gunpoint.
You are right in that there isn't a reasonable discussion to be had here, because you're stubbornly refusing to understand anything that isn't one of your shitty fallacies.
Ah, childhish.
You want something childhish? I didn't even read past that word.
Now I'm blocking you.
I'm just saying so you spare your fingers from a lengthy response that I won't be seeing.
I don't hold grudges, so I will unblock you in a few days. I just don't want to keep reading you right now.
Have a great day!
Exactly my point.
Why even reply with "I didn't even read that and I'm gonna block you"? What would you call that, if not "childish"?
Actively avoiding me pointing out you — perhaps on accident, but did nonetheless — spread Russian propaganda about occupied Ukraine wanting to be Russians, when we have a lot of evidence that's incorrect.