this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2024
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I fully agree with the general message, but this particular anecdote doesn't really make sense to me and can easily be waved off by anyone who disagrees with it.
If buying isn't owning, that means it's renting or borrowing.
If you pirate it, they get no money and therefore cannot rent it out to you. You cannot just steal a movie from the movie rental store or a car from a car rental place. That's stealing.
Sure, it's infinitely reproducible but that's not what this meme says. That's an unrelated argument for piracy. It draws a direct connection between the 2 relationships of buying + owning and pirating + stealing. However, one has nothing to do with the other.
When someone owns something, they are allowed to rent it out and take it back at any time. It's always been that way and that's valid.
The real argument should be "if there was no intention to buy in the first place, then piracy isn't stealing" or something like that.
Let me rephrase. I agree that piracy isn't stealing, but the fact that buying isn't owning does NOT prove that at all, nor does it have anything to do with it. It's a reason people pirate, sure, but it in no way proves that piracy isn't stealing. The phrase is an if;then statement. If one thing is true, it MEANS the other is true, which just isn't the case. Both can be true sure, but proving the first half does not prove the second half. Making one true does not instantly make the other true.
This will not make anyone at ubisoft mad. In fact, they will be glad that such a poorly crafted argument is being used against them, since it's 0 effort to disprove and dismiss it. We should raise other arguments that are logically sound if we want to convince anyone - friends, family, lawmakers - of anything.
Am I completely missing the point or is this analogy completely nonsensical?
On a side note, I condone piracy and nobody should ever give money to large media corporations. But if we use stupid arguments like this it makes us easier to dismiss.
Edit: I'm looking for discussion here. If you're going to downvote me, at least tell me why you think my argument is wrong. I'm here to learn.
basically if you get to be a scumbag so do I
2 wrongs don't make a right, this phrase just points out how piracy is a service issue
I agree that it's a good reason to pirate, but the meme/phrase is ostensibly trying to use the definition of owning to change the definition of stealing.
It doesn't prove anything, it just gives a good reason why people are pirating, when it looks like it's trying to prove some logical relationship of the concepts.
if my property can be taken without fair compensation so can theirs.
pretty cut and dry logical relationship.
I think we're talking about two different things here.
I agree that they have shitty predatory business practices. However, you did not sign an EULA saying that you could take their property. So even if they do take the things you bought from them away, you would be out of luck. The thing that needs to change is not allowing that to be classified as "buying".
What I'm talking about is "if buying isn't owning" having anything to do with "then piracy isn't stealing". Buying not being owning is a great reason to pirate. Still doesn't make piracy any more legal.
I mean, digital piracy isn't stealing regardless of the premise that buying ≠ owning.
Stealing is taking another's property without the intent to return it. Making a digital copy is not taking any property, it's creating a reproduction of it. The only place left to argue that piracy is stealing would be to say that you're stealing the company's theoretical revenue... but that revenue was never tangible property, being that it's your money up until the moment you give it to them. Piracy is, and only is, copyright infringement.
Why are you entitled to any video game you want for free?
I'd argue stealing is also taking something for free that you would normally have to pay for.
Aren't you essentially arguing all digital property is worthless because its made of nothing?
You know thats not true though, there is worth or else you wouldnt want to steal it.
Nobody here has claimed that, don't put words in their mouths.
Thats cool. You're wrong, though.
Nope, they're pointing out that it's infinitely reproducible and thus making a copy doesn't deprive someone of their copy.
And then use that as justification to steal it. What a fun circle we just went in.
Not what's happening, as has been said. Legally, not just semantically
I'm saying stealing and piracy are equivalent. Different words for the same thing. It does make sense pirates don't want to be associated with the thieves, but as someone who has been around both groups, they are exactly the same thing.
Its the same as me going on farms and stealing fruit from their trees and calling it fruit sharing instead of theft. You can call it whatever you want, its still stealing when it comes to morals.
Say it all you want, it's not true
Nope, not the same thing at all
Only to someone as dumb as you
Nope, that's theft. You've deprived someone of their fruit. You having that fruit means they do not. Do you see the clear and obvious difference here?
Only if you're an idiot. Again, nobody's been deprived of something they'd otherwise have
I'm an idiot who doesnt want art to become worthless and cease to be made. But go ahead and steal from the people who make the thing you enjoy so much, why not. Its actually the moral thing to do right? Not stealing at all.
Hey, finally something we can agree on!
I guarantee you it's not the pirates that will do that
Not stealing, it's very simple, I can't believe you haven't figured that out yet
That poor strawman you built sure is taking a beating, damn
It literally isn't, you've just shoved your head so far up your ass you refuse to understand the basics that even the law disagrees with your take
Then you wanna pretend like the reason I keep pointing that out is some morality issue when I don't give a fuck about the morality of it at all
Well thats certainly a position, fuck morality and all.
I see where you're coming from now and totally agree.
Whenever a concept is distilled to a catch phrase it always loses something.
Yeah that's true. I have no creative bone in my body so I can't even offer an alternative to the catch phrase I am calling out, unfortunately haha