this post was submitted on 29 May 2024
1336 points (98.1% liked)

Science Memes

11148 readers
1893 users here now

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.

Rules

  1. Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
  2. Keep it rooted (on topic).
  3. No spam.
  4. Infographics welcome, get schooled.

This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.

Research Committee

Other Mander Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
1336
Hero (mander.xyz)
submitted 5 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
202 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 95 points 5 months ago (4 children)

This is why good teams are essential. One person to do all the bullshitting, and the rest of the team to actually get stuff done while the bullshitter deflects all the other bullshitters.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

PROVIDED the bullshitter doesn’t turn inward. A PM with those skills unleashed on the team is hell, and is guaranteed to drive talent away.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago (2 children)

"Bullshitting" is an essential skill, not a distraction. The greatest idea in the world is meaningless if nobody knows about it.

Marketing, scmoozing, etc gets a bad rep. But no matter how good your output, product, research, etc is, it has very little value or impact if people don't get on board.

If you can't play the game, team up with someone who can. And don't forget that while that schmoozer may not have your technical skills, they have a skillset you do not.

It wasn't Woz or Jobs. It was both.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It's funny you use Woz and Jobs as an example when Jobs regularly emotionally manipulated and abused his employees and stole Woz's money.

I wonder why schmoozers have a bad rep 🤔

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Jobs was an asshole.

Also, he got shit done. He wasn't a technical genius, but he and the team he built could pitch the shit out of products. Apple's value has rarely been in its technical superiority, but in branding.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

"Asshole" is the word for a guy who likes to cut people off in traffic. I think there's probably a more appropriate word for someone who emotionally manipulates you over the course of years so you're continually a nervous wreck and can be destroyed any time it's convenient for him. Seriously if you haven't watched the interview I linked at least look at the first couple of minutes.

And at the end of the day, who did this behavior actually benefit? Steve helped make Apple a lot of money, sure, but where did most of that money go? It didn't go to the employees he abused, that's for sure. But maybe Apple products ended up benefitting society as a whole, and without Steve we wouldn't have had that? Well you already said that more often than not Apple's success didn't have anything to do with technical superiority.

The fact that people like this (Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, etc) often head successful companies isn't an example of how beneficial they are, it's an example of how broken our system is.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

It shows how important having a charismatic person is to make any venture a success. We're all humans with limited time on the earth. We can't possibly experience everything. All we see and do is filtered out of necessity. A charismatic advocate of a product/movement/idea can get people to pay attention.

The best musician in history is probably unknown because they didn't have a good manager/agent.

The greatest painting ever made was probably thrown away because nobody ever knew about it.

Hype men are necessary.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

In my personal experience I've had to go out of my way to find every quality product I've ever purchased, from dishwasher detergent to heat pumps, and none of them were the ones with the highest advertising budgets. You're right that we all have limited time and can't possibly evaluate every single thing that exists, but hype men don't help with that. The professional liars and manipulators that work in advertising only add to the noise and make it take longer to arrive at a conclusion. For example the fact that there are the 12 different brands of space heaters that come in different sizes and shapes and at different price points despite all performing the exact same way. It's like that with literally everything, from bar soap, to maple syrup, to sunscreen.

I think this way because I am autistic. I honestly cannot imagine feeling the need for hype men. The phrase "you need hype men" sounds to me like "you need your abuser, you cannot live without them".

Something like 35% of autistic people attempt suicide because of what the original post describes (and not just in science, but in every aspect of the world). And yeah, I think if I had to work for someone like Steve Jobs or Elon Musk I would as well.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

I'm very much the same way. Sales people are just give me hints of what not to trust and usually fold under any sustained inquiry about their product. Skilled sales people know when to turn me over to their subject matter expert. We get to geek and I actually learn a thing or two about their product and, often times, the state of the industry.

One of the things the above post doesn't include are the people who championed her. Between Elliot Barnathan, the cardiologist whose lab she was initially hired into, to David Langer, the resident who was able to get her a job in neurosurgery department, she was lucky enough to have someone who could do the hype while she did her work brilliantly.

In the publishing world, a great editor can recognize the genius of a writer, give quality feedback, and protect them from the moneyed interests.

I don't know if I'd call these people hype men, as they were so much more than hype, but they definitely hype the genius of the patronee.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You "need" them because the society we live in is built around them. It's the same reason you are forced to learn how to mask - you "need" to mask to survive, to put food on the table, to have a home and a bed to sleep in. This world is commanded by the manipulators, shaped and molded by the manipulators, and if you don't have the skills to swindle your drop of money in the form of a grant in research or investment into your company, your project just dies. Everyone hates it (except the manipulators), but that's just how things are at the moment.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Agreed. I'm not going to pretend it's a good thing though.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

I've noticed that everywhere I've worked I have connected with a person like that, for better or worse. I'm really bad at the people part of things but great at technical stuff. Unfortunately for the non people savvy it's hard to distinguish who is trying to use you vs who really wants to team up with you and help you as well as themselves... Yes Apple needed a Jobs to sell themselves, but it seems Jobs viewed Woz as an end to a goal, and not the partner/ human being who helped him get there.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

ok, everyone has hype men now. Everyone is charismatic now. Now what, will the greatest be found? We're just back to square one.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Yep. We've got me a technical guy who loves deep diving in theory and understanding the why of everything, and a smooth talking ex-Navy guy who is good at thinking on his feet and has great mechanical acumen. Last but not least, we have the guy who uses a sick day whenever there's work scheduled, and then shows up the next day and goes on some libertarian rant about how any progress we've made since the 19th century is a sign of our country going down the toilet. Dream team baby

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Kick the last one out. Get a fresh out of college graduate in place instead.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago

I often describe the team like we're doing a heist. There's the planner, the face, the muscle, and so on. We'll have a social problem and I'll tell the face to go talk to the other team for us.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Ok so what happens when the bullshitter gets all the recognition and nobody believes you when you try to prove otherwise? Document and take legal action?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago

Seconded. The “face man” gets to be the public face and thereby a lot of the social credit and perhaps most of the work credit as well.

We see people like this all the time in management who take all the credit for the work from those who actually did the work.