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No where did I say we shouldn't be working towards better.

No, but you immediately dismissed my S and A tier objectives as fantasy and objectives that shouldn't even be talked about. If you dismiss an objective as fantasy you aren't going to work towards it. If I tell myself it is impossible for me to run a sub-3 hour marathon, then I am not going to put the effort in to train for it and I will certainly never achieve it, but if I believe it is possible, I will work towards it, and even though I'll probably never achieve it, I might get close and be much happier with the results than never having tried.

Laws have to reflect reality though and not an ideal that can either never be achieved

This is the same flawed logic that I pointed out is being used in the gun violence "debate". A country with no gun violence is an unachievable ideal that doesn't reflect reality, so we shouldn't try to restrict who has access to guns. You don't see the parallel flawed logic there?

I was trying to find a common platitude that people on opposite sides of this issue could work towards, albiet for very different reasons.

1. Do we agree that unwanted pregnancies are an undesirable thing?

2. Do we agree that abortions are a direct result of #1?

3. Do we agree that abortions are an undesirable thing? If not from a moral stance, then at least in the way having an appendectomy is an undesirable thing?

If we agree on these things, then can we agree to work towards things that achieve the desired end state where abortion is legal but completely un-utilized?

I would have the exact same objective for homicide. I would love to have a country where homicide is legal but there are no homicides. Obviously that sounds ridiculous and completely unrealistic. What is the point? The point is that I want a country where nobody is murdered because nobody wants to murder anyone, not because they are afraid of legal punishment. Legal deterrence only goes so far. I am 100% confident I could murder someone and face no legal consequences, so what effect does the law have on my decision making?

This is what I have come to realize with abortion: I hate abortion, but what does changing the law really change? I don't want mothers who only birth their babies because they are afraid of going to jail. I want mothers who love their children, both before and after birth. I don't want women to find themselves in incredibly difficult situations with an unwanted pregnancy. But changing the law isn't going to change anyone's heart, and that is ultimately what I care about.

I know what a tier list is, but I'm stuck on mobile right now and it was hard to find an editor to edit the tier elements with. The new format is better.

So basically you are saying that abortions are a fact of life...

Glad to know that a country where women don't have unwanted pregnancies is a pure fantasy, so it isn't an objective that anyone should work towards.

• Let's not try to reduce the maternal mortality rate so that women don't have to make the horrible choice between living and having an abortion

• Let's not have safe, effective, and available contraception so that women don't get pregnant on accident

• Let's not try to eliminate rape so that women aren't forcibly impregnated

No, a country with legal abortions that are unwanted isn't achievable so we shouldn't try to work towards it. Just like we will never eliminate gun violence, so why bother even trying to work towards it...

I feel like this is just as much of a meme as this post: https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f7799a12-d1a3-4cc3-b682-8c2943043baa.jpeg

Which is a screenshot of an old news story.

Or this post: https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/1ef0fc84-eace-47f0-b928-7a1446e03b6c.jpeg?format=webp&thumbnail=256

Which is simply a screenshot of someones Twitter post.

So I'm pretty sure that isn't why it is downvoted so much...

At least my content is original.

^ This is the only attempt at an objective argument in this entire thread and it is not the argument presented by the OPs story, which was the point I was trying to make.

Maternal mortality includes abortions though: A maternal death is defined by the World Health Organization as “the death of a woman while pregnant or within 42 days of termination of pregnancy".

I could care less about being downvoted, but it made me realize that even people who claim to be interested in objective truth and facts are no different than the religious people who they mock for ignoring scientific evidence for things like global warming. Everyone just wants to reaffirm what they already believe.

"Still a man, he hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" -Paul Simon

Where does the Bible say life begins at first breath? I know that is says this, "13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb." Psalm 139:13 NIV.

If I were to argue on premises, then I would start with a higher premise: Why is murder illegal? If it is my religious belief that murder is wrong, then by your argument doesn't that make homicide laws a violation of the 1st Amendment and thus unconstitutional?

What you are describing is actually the simple truth that many worldviews and the beliefs and values that stem from them are incompatible and cannot coexist. This is the fundamental problem with the first ammendment. It assumes that people are exercising beliefs that are not diametrically opposed to each other.