this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2024
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The Hawaii Supreme Court handed down a unanimous opinion on Wednesday declaring that its state constitution grants individuals absolutely no right to keep and bear arms outside the context of military service. Its decision rejected the U.S. Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Second Amendment, refusing to interpolate SCOTUS’ shoddy historical analysis into Hawaii law. Dahlia Lithwick and Mark Joseph Stern discussed the ruling on this week’s Slate Plus segment of Amicus; their conversation has been edited and condensed for clarity.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

The conservatives on the supreme court are crap historians and even worse judges.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Originalism is nothing more than a mechanism for the Supreme Court to undo past precedent they don't like. Welcome to the new lochner era.

Hopefully we end this one like we ended the last, with a wave of socialism and a tough president willing to pack the court.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago

Hopefully we end this one like we ended the last, with a wave of socialism and a tough president willing to pack the court.

Given the current crop of politicians moving through the state and federal seats, I'm not holding my breath.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Sure, if Alabama can ignore SCOTUS, why not?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Speaking of Texas laws, could the rest of us pass a law that allows private citizens to sue anyone in possession of guns?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yes, but then you'd have to enforce it.

A big problem with modern "well if you do X then I'll do Y" is that - even in brighter blue states like California and Minnesota and Vermont - the local Sheriffs and Police Departments are all still Fash AF.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I think the fact that there's no government enforcement is what allowed that to work in Texas. You couldn't challenge the state, because it's private citizens that are "enforcing" the law through civil action.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago

You couldn’t challenge the state, because it’s private citizens that are “enforcing” the law through civil action.

Its private citizens who are alerting sheriff's deputies and local pd by filing these complaints. They've effectively created a kind of legal framework for anti-abortion SWATing.

The system only works because the cops/prosecutors/judges are assumed willing to play along. Specifically, Ken Paxton - the state AG - is fishing for pregnant woman and their attendant physicians to hook and hammer. He's outsourced the process of detective work to his horde of little online gumshoes. But the ability to exercise violence on anyone spotted is still reserved to his friendly officers corpse.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

::sigh::

This is a bad ruling; Hawai'i is saying that their state laws and traditions take precedent over federal laws, the US constitution, and SCOTUS rulings. It's intentionally trying to undermine the concept of the rule of law in order to get the result that they want. That's not a "devastating rebuke", it's a toddler screaming about not getting candy in the supermarket.

This is counter to the concept of the rule of law, and should be seen as an embarrassment, not something to celebrate.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

just like cannabis and other laws in states taking precedent over federal laws?

Texas is another example and abortion is a state by state issue too as is medical and vehicle insurances

driver's licenses are a state by state thing too as is voting not a federal thing all state by state and education standards are state by state and SNAP benefits

US should have gotten things more united and settled before it was too late and shattering instead of waiting to cry and moan about it afterwards

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I already responded to that. Local laws do not supersede federal marijuana laws, as you will quickly discover if you try to purchase a firearm. (And, BTW, if you are a 'legal' user of marijuana and buy a firearm, that's a federal felony.)

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

unless the state says otherwise

https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/sb19-093

make US laws make sense

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

That’s not a “devastating rebuke”, it’s a toddler screaming about not getting candy in the supermarket.

It appears Hawai'i is parroting decisions by redder states, in an effort to force the SCOTUS to rule broadly on the question of Supremacy (or, at least, try and split the baby in some coherent way).

This is counter to the concept of the rule of law

Its counter to the concept of Federalism, but right in line with the Seperatist theory of law that quite a few modern day politicians happily espouse when it suits them.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

It’s an amazing case because the Hawaii Constitution has a provision that is the same as the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. It literally uses the exact same words as the Second Amendment. And Justice Eddins said: Even though the provisions are the same, we will not interpret them the same way, because we think the U.S. Supreme Court clearly got it wrong in Heller when it said the Second Amendment creates an individual right to bear arms.

The bill of rights protects rights, it doesn't create rights. That is a pretty fundamental concept.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

As written, the right to bear arms only applies to people who are in a well regulated militia.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The modern use of "regulated" isn't the same as it was then.

Regulation had to do with training and equipment. The idea was that militias, as opposed to a standing ("Regular") army, weren't always trained and armed when they were called to arms. The idea of a "well-regulated militia" was for civilians to already have weapons and understand their use if they were needed.

So a requirement for a well-regulated militia is for civilians to have the right to own and use weapons.

Is it antiquated? Maybe. But saying that "well-regulated" militia was meant to limit access to firearms is an argument based on either ignorance or dishonesty.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Well not quite. Well regulated did also include training and they did not consider the average person to be well trained enough to qualify for the phrase.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago

False, George Mason quote "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason wrote a draft of what became the second amendment

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Right. Because rights are created by God, right?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Rights are not created, bestowed, issued, manufactured, or handed out.

They aren't a license or a badge or something physical.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Right. Just like God.

I think the important thing is to remember how important it always is to fight for them, at any rate.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Internet atheists see any mention of God or religion as an opportunity to hijack a discussion.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

When it's literally a discussion of where rights come from and theists suggesting they come from God (while avoiding the word God and pretending they mean something else), it's not hijacking. You're the one trying to hijack to discussion to talk about how much you hate atheists.