I use Arch btw
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Yes, I made it using a laptop's trackpad, how could you tell?
[Image description: Panel 1: Young man confidently walking, his vest bears the Wayland logo. Behind him is a grunt with the Gnome logo on his face holding a katana. The young man says: "It's high time you retire, old man!" Panel 2: An old man with a long beard and the Xorg logo on his chest is sitting on a throne and petting a rat, the XFCE mascot. He says: "It's still a hundred years too early for you to defeat me!" ]
Today, X is like the horse and buggy proponents, claiming the car isn't feasible cause you can't get gasoline in every town.
I mean, what's that one complaint about electric cars?
That you get like no mileage after hours of changing?
Tbh horses need quite a bit of rest too
It's the same argument. Getting a reasonable amount of charging is possible in 15 minutes. But not everyone has immediate access to fast charging stations. If everyone could always make a deliberate decision whether to go easy on the battery and save money or having to be places, EVs may look much more appealing to a lot of people.
This is amazing
Wayland gets so many more of the basics so much better than X11 it's not even funny anymore. X11 is stuttery, unsecure, unmaintaned, can't really be updated for new features that are pretty important in 2024 (VRR, HDR). For now with my usage, the only big disadvantage I saw from Wayland is that you can't restart it like X11 when something goes wrong, but that's the thing, I haven't had to restart it like I had to often with X11. Even on Nvidia Wayland is better now, except maybe for gaming but that's Nvidia for you.
You absolutely can restart Wayland. The command to do so is just specific to whichever DE or WM you're using as they have their own Wayland Compositor implementation.
DEs should implement good commands for that
startplasma-wayland)qdbus org.kde.ksmserver /KSMServer logout 0 3 3)kwin_wayland --replace)Some of those are completely undiscoverable
X11 is stuttery
Not for me
unsecure
Source?
unmaintaned
Received a number of commits just last week: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg
can't really be updated for new features that are pretty important in 2024 (VRR, HDR).
VRR is supported, at least on AMD: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate
For HDR you have a point, afaik.
Wayland gets so many more of the basics so much better than X11 it's not even funny anymore.
And yet X11 works rock solid for me, while Wayland still crashes whenever I so much as look at it wrong. The amount of time and work I've lost because of Wayland crapping out on me isn't even funny anymore. On AMD by the way, so no blaming Nvidia's crappy Linux support.
Wayland will probably be the better product one day, but this day is not that day, at least not for every use-case. Great that it works fantastically for you, I genuinely advise you to keep using it, but keep in mind that 'mileage may vary' from person to person. Personally for now I'll stick to X11, as I need to get work done and unfortunately don't have time to muck around with Wayland's antics.
Not for me
Source?
The Xorg devs have literally stated as much themselves.
Received a number of commits just last week: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg
The vast majority of those commits are literally because of Xwayland.
VRR is supported, at least on AMD: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate
Barely, it has numerous issues. The Wayland VRR implementations address much of those issues.
For HDR you have a point, afaik.
HDR literally can't be added to Xorg without rewriting the entire stack. They've been trying to get HDR working for something like around 10yrs before they gave up completely.
Wayland on the other hand has been designed from the ground up to be completely expandable, directly addressing the largest problem with Xorg, maintainability.
...at least not for every use-case... ...‘mileage may vary’ from person to person...
Yes, that's true. What would reduce edge cases however, is if you reported those bugs.
Wayland will probably be the better product one day...
That day is coming sooner then later.
Personally for now I’ll stick to X11...
That's fine, however you should switch as soon as it becomes viable to do so.
X11 is insecure. Any program can read any keystroke, any windows contents, can input anything anywhere etc.
The concept of separate apps basically doesnt exist.
Those security features are misleading.
A second app can already read all of your files, modify the first app, modify $PATH to replace your display server and do anything it wants as your user. Running wayland instead of Xorg provides no tangible benefits in security.
Yes and wayland is a puzzle piece of fixing that.
The other one is containerized apps that use a trusted system portal to get opt-in filesystem access to actually needed directories.
10% FPS drop compared to X11 because of perfect frame requirements
X11 has literally never stuttered even on the hack that is WSL
The only time I have actually gotten X11 to crash was an unrelated kernel panic.
Also no one uses X11 networking by default lmao, its always X forward over SSH, that is definitely secure and still something wayland can't do.
Also no one uses X11 networking by default lmao, its always X forward over SSH, that is definitely secure and still something wayland can’t do.
Sure it can, with waypipe (like, for a while now...)
Just waypipe ssh <host> [command]
You can even run X apps over this through cage even when X11 forwarding is disabled by the host (because, you know, the security issues...)
Okay now do one with systemd
It's the systemd drama all over again
No.
System D was/Is a philosophical debate.
Wayland vs X is a mortal attempting to summit Mt. Everest naked. Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it'll succeed.
Even the X people are like "Honestly it'd be a relief if you pulled this off, we're so tired, please end us"
No one thinks it'll succeed? Obviously you and I exist in very different parts of the linux sphere, cause I'm pretty sure X11 is all but dead as a project and its kinda just a question of how long it takes for Wayland to be feature complete enough to reach a critical mass of adoption. And its kinda feeling like we're currently on the cusp of being there with the major DEs moving towards discontinuing X11 support 😅
This software has been in development for a long time and still doesn't work for my niche usecase and this therefore UNUSABLE and DOOMED TO FAIL
That's a weird take. You have a software that you use and suits your needs. It's showing its age, but still tricks along. Then there's this other software that's gaining spotlight, but it does not suit all your needs. You point out the regression. Some rando makes fun of your valid point.
I agree with what you're saying, but you're shifting the goalpost.
Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it’ll succeed
That parent comment (and other comments like it in these threads) are what I take issue with. You can make the exact same argument why people should stick with Windows and not bother with Linux.
X is 36 years old. Wayland is 15. Wayland was not the first attempt at unseating that throne and for the sake of all our sanity, I hope it's the last. I don't want Wayland to win because it's better, I want Wayland to win because I'm tired of trying to use it and having to go back to X because it broke something.
Sounds like a skill issue to me
Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it'll succeed.
Uhhmm. I think by now most see it inevitable with distros and DEs switching on increasing pace
Chad X11
Except X.org should be frail and have tubes running out of every orifice on their body. They are on life support and receiving updates only related to Xwayland.
Is that the C++ mascot rat? As famously illustrated by rms?
I choose to believe that's the Xfce rat. The C++ one is fatter
No one asked but, the mascot's name is Xue btw.
Can't be Xfce. No vsync line in the middle
It's the Xfce mouse
Nice reference as Xfce still not implemented Wayland support as far as I know.
Yeah duh. It's called X fce??!?
so when they finish Wayland implementation will be Wfce? lol
They are working on it, while keeping the xorg session alive
Very true. Like I would love it if something worked as solidly as X but Wayland has had like 15 years to get it's shit together and it's still not there. There are plenty of people for who it does work too but 2 out of the 3 computers I use regularly have issues with Wayland.
Honestly it will never die but it will be a terrible idea to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the major software drops support eventually
A hundred years to early
At this rate, maybe 10
This is good stuff right here.
As far as tablet usage goes - with Ubuntu 23.10 running the latest "Surface Linux" kernel on my Surface Go gen 1, Wayland is finally buttery smooth. Screen rotation with Wayland is near instant, where as on xorg takes a couple seconds.
I can't say the same for my dual boot desktop that has an Nvidia 1050ti in it going to a 55" tv monitor via HDMI though - had to hook up a second monitor from dvi just to be able to login - which was not the case on Xorg.
Oh well, baby steps, but Wayland is definitely growing up fast and getting closer to being daily dtiver ready for nearly all use cases.
One of the main issues blocking me from going to Wayland is an app (cursr) that lets me move my cursor between different resolution displays only runs in X. Is there a solution in Wayland for this? I can post elsewhere but thought this seemed like a decent first step