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A Trump-Putin pact is emerging – and Europe is its target | Rafael Behr (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 2 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

31 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Aprime time current affairs programme; a discussion about Donald Trump’s handling of the war in Ukraine. “He’s doing excellent things,” says a firebrand politician on the panel, before listing White House actions that have belittled Volodymyr Zelenskyy and weakened his battlefield position – military aid suspended; satellite communications obstructed; intelligence withheld. “Do we support this?” It is a rhetorical question.

“We support it all. Absolutely,” the celebrity host responds. “We are thrilled by everything Trump is doing.”

Such approval might not be out of place on polemical rightwing channels in the US, but these exchanges weren’t broadcast to American audiences. The show’s anchor is Olga Skabeyeva, one of Vladimir Putin’s most dependable propagandists. To hear the highest pitch of praise for Trump’s bullying of Ukraine you need to watch Russia’s state-controlled Channel One.

When Russian and US delegations met in Saudi Arabia last month to discuss a resolution to the war in Ukraine, the most revealing feature of the conversation was the exclusion of any Ukrainians.

Less discussed, but still significant, was the inclusion in Putin’s delegation of Kirill Dmitriev, an alumnus of Stanford University, McKinsey and Goldman Sachs, now head of the Russian state investment fund. His pitch was that US businesses have foregone billions of dollars in profits by quitting Russia. Sanctions against Moscow are presented as another way that Ukraine and its European accomplices are ripping off America. Shortly after the Saudi meeting, Dmitriev was formally appointed Putin’s “special representative for investment and economic partnership with overseas countries”, with a mandate covering deals with the US.

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[–] [email protected] 140 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Living through it day to day, I assume most people are just confused and unbalanced, but looking back at this historically, it's going to be so goddamn obvious.

Trump is systematically destroying ties with all of US's allies going back 70-80 years. There is no justification, not even "fentanyl" and "immigration" apply to most of the allies we're picking fights with. The only country safe from criticism is Russia.

To me there is no doubt what's happening, but it's incredibly discouraging that there doesn't seem to be a thing we can effectively do about it. American voters were offered a cyanide pill, told it was candy by a known conman and liar, and ate it despite us all shouting, "It's cyanide, don't be an idiot!"

[–] [email protected] 59 points 2 days ago (2 children)

The Americans sold their nation for the promise of cheap eggs and an ethnostate.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 days ago

We lost the civil war to the south, just took longer.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 days ago (1 children)

And being "strong/great" again ... whatever that's supposed to mean.

The vagaries of Trump's brain are indecipherable.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago

Hell say whatever he thinks he needs to to scam you out of a dollar.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 2 days ago

It's all because of propaganda. They live in an entirely different world that is not reality. I'm surrounded by conservative voters where I live and most of them say "I haven't heard about that" whenever I mention a new outrage that's in the news that I see. I think it's their way of saying "I don't believe you".

When I talked to a couple of them about the zelensky oval office fiasco one response was "well I heard that zelensky called Vance a bitch in the meeting". I pointed out that he was lied to and that the whole thing was recorded and that never happened, but I would bet money that they still believe that lie over me. Another response was the Russian propaganda that zelensky is a dictator. There is no reasoning with them. They don't care about what reality is. They only believe in what makes them feel good and feeds their pride and ego. I've tried having rational discussions, but it always ends with them saying "I can't articulate why you're wrong, but I disagree with you". If you can't articulate something maybe that means you don't understand it enough and should reevaluate your conclusions, but they won't because it would hurt their pride. God damnit I'm am so far beyond frustrated with them.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Trump is systematically destroying ties with all of US's allies going back 70-80 years.

It's one thing that Trump is doing all of that. What really hurts the trust and relationships is that nobody is fucking stopping him. And I'm not talking about revolution or something similar. There are no safety measures in the US for this situation or if there are, they are failing. Shouldn't it be the job of the NSA or another fancy agency to prevent him to act against the interests of the nation?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

I agree that the part that is really messed up is that no one is stopping this.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago

To me there is no doubt what’s happening, but it’s incredibly discouraging that there doesn’t seem to be a thing we can effectively do about it. American voters were offered a cyanide pill, told it was candy by a known conman and liar, and ate it despite us all shouting, “It’s cyanide, don’t be an idiot!”

Yeah.

I'm... done with my fellow Americans at this point.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I would expect nothing less from Putin’s puppet.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 days ago

While this may be true, and it may be comforting, it takes away the complicity of the state and the corporate interests that enable it. It portrays Trump as a rogue actor, separate from other structures. If I know it, and you know it, then the corporate boards and think tanks know it. It’s difficult to absorb, but the intelligencia in America is at the very least okay with what he is doing.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Russia takes Ukraine, the US takes Canada. Everyone else stand back or else.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Exactly, it’s the tried and true method of appeasement that has made Chamberlain synonymous with effective diplomacy. Nothing can go wrong.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Chamberlain has gotten a bum rap from history - he did not think that appeasing Hitler was anything other than a temporary expedient to buy time. The British government at the time (not just Neville himself) felt that Germany's modern air force was powerful enough to destroy them on its own and that they couldn't challenge Hitler until they had enough modern fighters (Hurricanes and Spitfires) to defend themselves. In additional fact, the only reason Britain had these fighters in the pipeline at all was because Chamberlain had resisted the entreaties of Britain's own "bomber mafia", a group of RAF officers and industrialists who wanted Britain to build their own massive bomber fleet for offensive action in lieu of defensive fighters.

In retrospect, the impact of the bomber was vastly overestimated in the 1930s, as evidenced by the fact that Germany ended up suffering a much more massive assault at the hands of British and American bomber fleets later in the war while continuing to increase military production all the while. Britain under Chamberlain should have stood up to Hitler much earlier, but this was an error of judgement and not an act of capitulation.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

It's also worth noting that he fell on his own sword, politically. He knew that Briton needed a strong leader, with the people unified behind them. Churchill could do this, he couldn't. He took the blame to keep the rest of the party clean.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 days ago

"emerging" JFC thanks guardian for just now mentioning the thing that's been blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes and ears for over a decade

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I'll have to revisit my plans to flee the US to Europe. Between avoiding climate change impact, avoiding being close to fascists and nationalists/violence, having access to clean food and health care.. the options are narrowing pretty quickly.

Maybe an old sailboat anchored off the border of Washington state and Canada is the answer. No internet, but internet is overrated.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago

I'm in process of fleeing to Europe.

The thing is: I am one of those rare people who could make a genuine difference in the fight, and I'm glad to.

I want to fight for something that matters, and obviously that is no longer the Confederate States of America.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

No place is safe from these billionaires and trans-national corporations. No nation can stop their collective power, it has to be all of us this time. Remember North Korea - it doesn’t have to ever get better once it gets bad and this is probably our last chance.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

That image in particular says everything we need to know.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

hes always like that next to putin. its like putin, his father scolded him just before the photo op.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

Putin's Sock Puppets wants North and Central America for starters. Vlad wants Europe Xi wants Asia.

[+] [email protected] -6 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Sucks for Ukraine but I'm looking forward to how this will affect the world geopolitically. Hopefully the breaking of Europe with America will give the global South some breathing room.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

This will really be an interesting question for the so-called global south. Since most countries there are generally considered to politically align with China/Russia due to "anti imperialism", it's going to be interesting to see if they remain on the side of Russia although this is now the side of the US or whether they alternatively remain opposed to the US but find themselves on the same side as the Europeans.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Since most countries there are generally considered to politically align with China/Russia due to "anti imperialism",

Are you sure about that? To my knowledge some countries align strongly with Russia or China (mainly Russia as China doesn't pursue alliances outside their immediate sphere of influence), but the vast majority are opportunists who only marginally sway one side or the other. I'm from the Middle East so I can't speak much to other regions, but anti-West sentiment is mostly a common people thing that doesn't make its way to the top levels of government (which are, as I said, primarily concerned with getting the best deal they can). For example geopolitically Egypt is American-aligned because America is supporting the floundering regime financially and militarily, and Morocco naturalized relations with Israel in exchange for US recognition for their claims over Western Sahara. The countries that do align with Russia due to "anti-imperialism" are mostly looking for a new boss to replace the old boss because they hate the old boss (stares at France). This is all to say: Russia and America aligning is of no immediate concern to most countries that don't have close ties to Western Europe; it's all about navigating conflicts between global powers and getting the best deal possible for oneself and one's country.

A notable exception is probably Iran, which will probably be distanced by Russia if the US-Russia alignment fully progresses. However, this is because Iran is trying to attain regional dominance, so rather than getting the best deal they know the deal they want and they're trying to get it.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Well, if you consider only Africa and the Middle East to be "global South", then maybe. But I'd say South Asia is also a part, has most of human population there and pretty much is aligned with Russia and China.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

Fair enough.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

As an American, I’ve only ever thought good things about our ties with Europe. I haven’t been paying attention to the southern half of the globe much, and I’d like to hear more about how that scary outcome could help things there. Apologies for my …well, American-ness.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Well, the crux of the issue is that for the last 80 years Western and Central European countries have been content to be America's lackies and help further their imperialist ambitions around the world even though the EU itself is mostly not imperialist itself (emphasis on mostly stares at France). The biggest example of this is probably Israel. If Europe cuts off America they'd have no reason to continue supporting Israel (which they absolutely do; the EU is Israel's biggest trading partner) because the only thing Europe gains from supporting Israel in the first place is pleasing America.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Sir, Israel is at 31 degrees N latitude. You were mentioning the southern hemisphere?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago

I said the global South, not the Southern hemisphere.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_North_and_Global_South