this post was submitted on 11 Jan 2025
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Lemmy.World Announcements

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MODERATORS
 

Communities should not be overly moderated in order to enforce a specific narrative. Respectful disagreement should be allowed in a smaller proportion to the established narrative.

Humans are naturally inclined to believe a single narrative when they're only presented with a single narrative. That's the basis of how fiction works. You can't tell someone a story if they're questioning every paragraph. However, a well placed sentence questioning that narrative gives the reader the option to chose. They're no longer in a story being told by one author, and they're free to choose the narrative that makes sense to them, even if one narrative is being pushed much more heavily than the other.

Unfortunately, some malicious actors are hijacking this natural tendency to be invested in fiction, and they're using it to create absurd, cult-like trends in non-fiction. They're using this for various nefarious ends, to turn us against each other, to generate profit, and to affect politics both domestically and internationally.

In a fully anonymous social media platform, we can't counter this fully. But we can prune some of the most egregious echo chambers.

We're aware that this policy is going to be subjective. It won't be popular in all instances. We're going to allow some "flat earth" comments. We're going to force some moderators to accept some "flat earth" comments. The point of this is that you should be able to counter those comments with words, and not need moderation/admin tools to do so. One sentence that doesn't jive with the overall narrative should be easily countered or ignored.

It's harder to just dismiss that comment if it's interrupting your fictional story that's pretending to be real. "The moon is upside down in Australia" does a whole lot more damage to the flat earth argument than "Nobody has crossed the ice wall" does to the truth. The purpose of allowing both of these is to help everyone get a little closer to reality and avoid incubating extreme cult-like behavior online.

A user should be able to (respectfully, infrequently) post/comment about a study showing marijuana is a gateway drug to !marijuana without moderation tools being used to censor that content.

Of course this isn't about marijuana. There's a small handful of self-selected moderators who are very transparently looking to push their particular narrative. And they don't want to allow discussion. They want to function as propaganda and an incubator. Our goal is to allow a few pinholes of light into the Truman show they wish to create. When those users' pinholes are systematically shut down, we as admins can directly fix the issue.

We don't expect this policy to be perfect. Admins are not aware of everything that happens on our instances and don't expect to be. This is a tool that allows us to trim the most extreme of our communities and guide them to something more reasonable. This policy is the board that we point to when we see something obscene on [email protected] so that we can actually do something about it without being too authoritarian ourselves. We want to enable our users to counter the absolute BS, and be able to step in when self-selected moderators silence those reasonable people.

Some communities will receive an immediate notice with a link to this new policy. The most egregious communities will comply, or their moderators will be removed from those communities.

Moderators, if someone is responding to many root comments in every thread, that's not "in a smaller proportion" and you're free to do what you like about that. If their "counter" narrative posts are making up half of the posts to your community, you're free to address that. If they're belligerent or rude, of course you know what to do. If they're just saying something you don't like, respectfully, and they're not spamming it, use your words instead of your moderation abilities.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

they’re free to choose the narrative that makes sense to them, even if one narrative is being pushed much more heavily than the other.

This just translates to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean or "reversion to mediocrity". Much like 🤬🤬🤬🤬it's /all, every time that mainstream spills into a community it ruins it and brings it closer to the mainstream.

In biology, you may recognize some of these phenomena from biochemistry: osmosis and diffusion. The demand to disable the "semi-permeable membrane" ends the purpose of the compartment.

Either the invading posts/comments get removed or the influx of participants (including voting) has to be rationed somehow. Doing neither is not a discussion about narratives, it's a mobbing. It's the opposite of promoting discourse, as that setup heavily favors the "mainstream" narrative, the status quo.

I should mention that I've been a moderator of internet communities since before Web 2.0 and I find the moderation tools for Lemmy type platforms to be terrible. If the expectation is to not have practical moderation, but instead to separate into fedi-islands and block the problematic networks, well, that would be a very blunt way to get to the same goals. Instead of having moderators individually ban users, you have admins ban entire networks of users.

There is no getting away from the need for moderators. Musk proved that again since he took over Twitter. Zuckerberg is proving it again now. You're not building a protopia by hampering moderation, you're building a cyber-wasteland. Any success with that will be temporary, like a pump and dump: you get a period of growth and a honeymoon, and then the critical mass of assholes is achieved and they turn everything to shit, and then most users have to start searching for greener ~~pastures~~ food forests to migrate to. Another term for that is unsustainable, it can't last.

The point of this is that you should be able to counter those comments with words, and not need moderation/admin tools to do so.

Rationality is much more complex than you think. The experience of the COVID-19 pandemic should've taught you that already, first hand. The simple model of persuasion by presenting reasonable arguments and evidence is wrong. There's an entire field looking into cognitive biases that show how irrational humans are. How exactly do you plan to argue with people who believe in "alternative facts" and "post-truth"?

All I see in the article you posted is a lack of experience in dealing with bullshit, a lack of understanding of the viral or memetic nature of bullshit.

It’s harder to just dismiss that comment if it’s interrupting your fictional story that’s pretending to be real. “The moon is upside down in Australia” does a whole lot more damage to the flat earth argument than “Nobody has crossed the ice wall” does to the truth. The purpose of allowing both of these is to help everyone get a little closer to reality and avoid incubating extreme cult-like behavior online.

It's disheartening that you haven't learned yet that flateartherism is a variant of creationism, another religiously inspired pseudoscience.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 minutes ago

Well said the majority will often want to oppress the minority.

The phrase “common sense” is flawed as the majority have been wrong about certain topics in the past like lobotomies being used to “correct problematic behaviour”.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

“A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes.”

This policy change will only reward bad actors. This sort of behavior needs to be stopped ASAP, simply correcting the record after the damage is done is not enough.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 19 minutes ago

Have you seen the thread that brought this about? It was one group of vegans lamenting at a formerly vegan restaurant which added a small number of non-vegan options to try and attract enough customers not to close, and then closing regardless when that didn't work. Then there was respectful debate as to whether it is better for every restaurant to have a small number of vegan options, or for one restaurant to be 100% vegan. The mods of that community shut the whole thing down, despite it being incredibly respectful, because to them any possible concession in any circumstances makes you a "fake vegan" and worthy of a ban.

This rule change could be problematic if applied in the wrong circumstances, but it's being enacted for a very clear and beneficial purpose.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 44 minutes ago
[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 hours ago

This policy is the board that we point to when we see something obscene on [email protected] so that we can actually do something about it without being too authoritarian ourselves.

Any comment on this one?

https://lemmy.world/post/23229045

I checked the thread, those comments are still removed: https://lemmy.world/comment/13966483

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)
[–] [email protected] 37 points 10 hours ago (3 children)

I couldn't care less about flat earthers. It's the lack of moderation of hate speech that prompted me to leave Meta products. When the speech is specifically designed to harm others it's a huge difference from just harming themselves and their willing peers. Allowing spreading that LGBTQ+ people are mentally ill or that Autistic people need to be fixed rather than accepted, or that all immigrants are bad people, those things are not just bad science (though that's part of it). They are designed to have those people ostracized or murdered. That is not "respectful disagreement". That is pure hate-speech, even if the person saying it truly believes it. It is detrimental to the community and if that is allowed here like on Meta now, I'll happily leave as a proud LGBTQ+ and neurodivergent person among other things that current "political discourse" (i.e. acceptable hate) is being allowed to spread.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 hours ago

It isn't necessarily 'pure hate speech' and shutting off the discussion is what is leading you to come to this conclusion. If a pill were developed that allowed someone diagnosed with autism to live more like the general public without a lifetime of current therapies, and no side-effects why is me suggesting they consider this option 'pure hate'? Can you see how one-sided your stance is?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 hours ago

https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/ could be a good fit for you

[–] [email protected] 18 points 9 hours ago

Our original ToS hasn't gone anywhere and will still be enforced. Hate speech is not respectful. None of this means discrimination or hate speech is okay.

  1. Attacks on people or groups

Before using the website, remember you will be interacting with actual, real people and communities. Lemmy.World is not a place for you to attack other people or groups of people. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't give you the right to harass them. Discuss ideas and be critical of principles. Show the respect you desire to receive.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (1 children)

I posted this in another thread but I also wanted to say it here so it's more likely one of you will see it. I get the intention behind this, and I think it's well intentioned, but it's also definitely the wrong way to go about things. By lumping opposing viewpoints and misinformation together, all you end up doing is implying that having a difference in opinion on something more subjective is tantamount to spreading a proven lie, and lending credence to misinformation. A common tactic used to try and spread the influence of hate or misinformation is to present it as a "different opinion" and ask people to debate it. Doing so leads to others coming across the misinfo seeing responses that discuss it, and even if most of those are attempting to argue against it, it makes it seem like something that is a debatable opinion instead of an objective falsehood. Someone posting links to sources that show how being trans isn't mental health issue for the 1000th time wont convince anyone that they're wrong for believing so, but it will add another example of people arguing about an idea, making those without an opinion see the ideas as both equally worthy of consideration. Forcing moderators to engage in debate is the exact scenario people who post this sort of disguised hate would love.

Even if the person posting it genuinely believes the statement to be true, there are studies that show presenting someone with sources that refute something they hold as fact doesn't get them to change their mind.

If the thread in question is actually subjective, then preventing moderators from removing just because they disagree is great. The goal of preventing overmodedation of dissenting opinions is extremely important. You cannot do so by equating them with blatent lies and hate though, as that will run counter to both goals this policy has in mind. Blurring the line between them like this will just make misinformation harder to spot, and disagreements easier to mistake as falsehoods.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 9 hours ago

A common tactic used to try and spread the influence of hate or misinformation is to present it as a "different opinion" and ask people to debate it.

Very good point

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 hours ago (2 children)

I respectfully disagree with this policy change as debate communities have their place in allowing discourse on topics.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Because the one thing a vegan community (meant specifically for vegans) needs is carnists coming in to troll everyone into debating them, it's just a little dissent that totally won't turn the community into a hostile environment /s

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago

Let me come to the vegan group to discuss finer points of slow cooking a brisket, I really think it will convince you. You have to tolerate me, just debating, bro.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah. not every community needs to be a debate community. It's perfectly fine for some communities to be fan communities where the expectation and intention is like-minded people discussing a shared interest or world view. Someone going into a "marijuana" community and saying "marijuana is bad" is just trolling, not engaging in some higher philosophical exercise.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Someone going into a "marijuana" community and saying "marijuana is bad"

And? Than he will be downvoted or ignored. Why would you advocate removing his post (assuming he can link to a scientific study proving his point - I don't know if he could).

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

They won't be downvoted and ignored, they'll spawn 5 replies escalating the forum fight and whatever the actual topic was will be pushed to the side. And the people who just want to talk about marijuana will feel like their fan community is now a debate club for trolls.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

They won't be downvoted and ignored

Why wouldn't they be downvoted in the sub dedicated to marijuanna?

they'll spawn 5 replies

What you mean is they will engage in the discussion. Good, this is what Lemmy is for

people who just want to talk about marijuana will feel like their fan community is now a debate club

This is still the discussion about marijuanna, not about classic cars.

You are making no sense unless your point is "I am entitled to air my view without any opposite views contradicting mine". If so, go away sweetie.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

If so, go away sweetie.

Yeeeah. Really demonstrating how you're dedicated to high concept discussion and not just wanting to "debate me bro" wherever you feel life.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 hours ago

No. I am dedicated to the concept of people being able to express their views without idiots trying to ban them for expressing their views.

I never said it will be me engaging in the discussion.

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