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China has been stealing technology and design for decades and got sanctioned. That's what happens.
Demand all you want, but nobody's going to trust you enough to deal as long as you keep advocating for corporate espionage against "trade partners."
Conducting a cultural genocide isn't helping, of course, but really even just the theft of data and technology is enough.
Nah, China hasn't been stealing anything. Western companies made an explicit choice to do business in China at the cost of tech transfer. Today, China has long outpaced the west in many technological areas. Meanwhile, imagine still peddling cultural genocide conspiracy theories. If you want to see what actual cultural genocide looks like then go to US or Canada and see what settlers did to the indigenous population.
Here's when they stole military hardware specs:
Here's when they stole turbine designs:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950
Here's where s Chinese worker literally stole a troubleshooting robot from T-Mobile, Chinese companies stole electric vehicle designs, it just goes on and on:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-us-china-trade-war-ip-theft-20190221-story.html
Chinese companies steal constantly. Companies who work with them know that there will be technology transfer, not that there will be blatant, illegal theft Chinese individuals and companies regularly perpetrate.
It's absolutely adorable that you think only Chinese companies do this, like corporate espionage doesn't exist in the west. 😂
Ah, making up new points that weren't asserted because you lost the argument. Classic yogi.
Corporate espionage occurs everywhere, It's just blatant with Chinese spies, case in point being that fellow who lifted up a robot and walked out of the T-Mobile laboratories with it.
You said that China doesn't commit corporate espionage and theft constantly so I listed half a dozen recent cases with actual evidence and convictions that show they do.
I didn't lose any argument. All companies steal tech from each other everywhere all the time. The claim you were trying to make is that China somehow steals from the west at state level as a policy. Today, China is way ahead of the west in many areas technologically, I guess using your galaxy brain logic they must be stealing it from the future.
The best part here is that you genuinely think you made a good and coherent point. 😂
You lied. I did not claim that China is stealing from the west at state level as a policy.
Today China is not technologically ahead of "the west." This is very easy to see if you look at the above links, showing the times that China has blatantly stolen basic design and tech that they shouldn't need if they were ahead of even just the US. Since China is behind the US technologically, they are constantly stealing designs and technology from the US.
Now we'll just ignore all the things that you are making up and focus on what actually happened.
You incorrectly claim that Chinese companies and spies do not constantly commit corporate espionage and steel technology and designs from the west.
Above, there are half a dozen clear cut recent examples of China stealing designs and technology from the west.
meanwhile in the real world 😂
Ah yes, their"potential" and 'possible" advancements.
These articles do not actually measure technology, they measure the amount of money the ccp is investing in tech in order to catch up with the US and articles published, regardless of the content.
When you discover the metrics by which these "leads" are established, it's easy to see why the "leading" country in 37 tech fields is so desperate to steal technology from the US.
Person B is a not a better painter than person A because they bought more paintbrushes.
😂
That is the worst nuclear grade cope I have ever seen, or they are illiterate and I feel bad for laughing
yog since the moron liberal is on an instance that has lemmygrad blocked I can't send them this, can you give them these three articles: https://archive.is/gYjT9 https://archive.is/Y5ZBL https://archive.is/H7VRA
Considering the US built itself on a foundation of corporate espionage... Well, duh? Everyone does it, including American companies on other American companies. If your technology lags behind others, corporate espionage is the easiest way forwards. Globalization was supposed to slow down corporate espionage by making the technology more easily available (as evidenced by the relatively mundane technology that gets stolen today), but that's unraveling.
Corporate espionage is reason for sanctioning companies, not countries. If your IP is necessary for national security, it should be owned by the government and protected as such. Otherwise, I have no sympathy for private profit-driven companies losing their competitive advantage because of decades of underfunding on their cyber security systems.
The "relatively mundane technology that gets stolen today"? Like hypersonic missile guidance systems? Every type of personal data of entire populations? Turbines that power literally every major source of power the US and China have been using since they started using electricity?
These are not mundane technologies.
As for sanctioning companies rather than countries, if the companies who steal this tech are owned by the government, in whole or part, this is not a "private" theft. This is state-owned theft. Malicious action of one state against another.
Yes, the US should invest more in cybersecurity, but blaming the victim is a poor justification for theft.
Here’s where s Chinese worker literally stole a troubleshooting robot from T-Mobile, Chinese companies stole electric vehicle designs, it just goes on and on
Oh no! Not a troubleshooting robot! Whatever will they do...
Again, if it's a state secret that's important for national security, it should be protected by the government. It doesn't matter who's attacking (because, y'know, crown corporations exist and can be sanctioned as individual entities), but it matters who's defending. An attack against T-Mobile's troubleshooting robot or Rivian's electric vehicle is not an attack against the US. Private companies operate in a domain where corporate espionage is prevalent. Expecting corporate espionage to not happen is silly.
Corporate espionage is how Korea (Samsung, etc.), Taiwan (TSMC), Japan (Hitachi, etc.), and China jump-started their economies. Hell, it's how the US jump-started it's economy and was an act that Alexander Hamilton strongly supported.
Often times it's state-sponsored or state-condoned and certainly partially state-owned (simply because the economies of these countries are intricately tied into the success of these companies, and these companies receive significant government investment through government-owned and government-managed funds).
For more, please see Hamilton's "Report on Manufacturing" here: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015014667409;view=1up;seq=3
State secrets crosses the realm into true espionage and should be punished as such, but corporate espionage? If the technology is owned by a private company, it clearly was seen to be harmless enough for the state to not bother protecting.
Interesting how you ignored the theft of hypersonic missile software and metadata of entire populations, then went straight back to victim blaming.
"simply because the economies of these countries are intricately tied into the success of these companies, and these companies receive significant government investment through government-owned and government-managed funds" - yes, this is exactly my point. State-sponsored they of IP, specifically citizen data and weapons systems is not mundane and it's not okay.
Nobody expects theft not to happen, scarecrow, the problem is that country C is having threats against country A while stealing strategic and military data.
However you justify theft, theft is wrong, and in this case, dangerous. This is a bad thing that the Chinese government and companies are sponsoring. It doesn't matter that other entities do it too, it's still a bad thing.
Your incorrect argument is that because there is a LOT of rape, rape is fine. You are wrong. Rape is still horrific, malign behavior, regardless of how many people do it.
Your incorrect argument is that a rapist gets to make that determination. They don't. It's like saying "my rape was ok, but yours isn't!"
That's not how things work. It's either ok or it isn't.
Maybe if it was a country that didn't built it's entire economy on the back of corporate espionage, you might have a bit of an argument.
So your argument is repeating and agreeing with what I just told you: that a malicious act is malicious regardless of how many people do it. Thank you for conceding that point, however odd it is to frame my argument as your own argument. Given you're still taking my side, I'm fine with it..
And then right after that you vaguely argue against yourself that because one country commits corporate espionage, it's okay that other countries commit corporate espionage.
You're making a case in support of my argument that malicious acts are malicious regardless of how many people commit them, and then subsequently arguing against yourself, which I do appreciate, so thank you for your support!
Protip: try not to precisely paraphrase the argument the person you're arguing against has put forward, including their example, and then agree with their point and example; this will usually lead to you losing the argument.
There's no reason for country-level sanctions for private corporate espionage. It's that simple.
It doesn't matter if corporate espionage is malicious and it's frankly hypocritical for America to be calling out other countries' corporate espionage.
Glad you agree with my points, even if it took you four reiterations to understand them.
Nobody argued that there should be country level sanctions for private corporate espionage, weird that you keep focusing on arguments nobody has made.
Yes, of course it matters if the theft of military data by a hostile state is malicious. It is of the essence.
And no, victim blaming still won't get you anywhere.
I appreciate your support
Except that's exactly what you're calling for? You gave evidence of (presumably a Chinese telecom) stealing T-Mobile testing equipment as a reason for the sanctions.
That robot was stolen by Huawei, which is heavily subsidized by the CCP.
But what I have said repeatedly, regardless of your presumptive tangents, is that state level actions make a state responsible, and in the examples I gave, a hostile state has ownership ties to companies stealing energy production data and military data.
But... you don't consider T-Mobile, Apple, Intel, or Microsoft to be American state-sponsored companies despite their hundreds of billions in subsidies and tax incentives?
Odd.
The recent CHIPS act gave Intel what, like $20 billion in subsidies. Guess what? That's what governments do to stimulate economic growth.
Odder that you keep making false arguments and pretending they are my arguments.
Huawei, which is heavily subsidized by the CCP.
This statement is literally irrelevant because, guess what, every reasonable country subsidizes their domestic industries. I've proven that and you're unwilling to accept that state-owned enterprises (which exist, by the way) are different from private companies.
I'll help you out: Intel is a private company. Amtrak is not. Alibaba is a private company, CRRC is not. Huawei is a private company, CNPC is not.
I'm sure everyone is very proud of you for repeating things that I stated previously in this thread and pretending they are your argument.
Wait right here, I'll find someone who can slow clap for you(I feel like you'll be able to understand the clap better that way).
So... you don't have an argument? Great!
An argument against you repeating what I said and agreeing with me?
No, I stand by what I said and you parroted.
so... you really do have no argument, huh? You claim that taking state subsidies makes a company state-sponsored.
I claim that that's stupid, because it means that Intel and Microsoft would be considered state-sponsored enterprises.
I don't have an argument against my own argument, no.
Regardless of what you claim I claim, you've already taken my side on all of this.
Thank you for your support!.
So, you really don't have an argument, huh?
This bit in particular sums up why US is in a panic right now
“Finding buyers for US debt is the top mission of Yellen. From a medium-and-long-term perspective, China is disposing of US debt,” it says. “Who else will buy it? Japan is the biggest creditor of the US but cannot buy more. The United Kingdom is facing an economic recession and sold $30 billion of US debt in April.”
China holds <$1T of US debt. Sure, they're the second largest foreign holder of US public debt, but we could easily replace that debt if needed. The Treasury itself bought much more than that after the 2008 crisis, and we could do it again. Private citizens hold way more than China does through mutual funds and whatnot, and investors would buy more if rates go up.
The real problem is that interest rates for public debt is going up, so we'll end up paying a lot later share of our budget toward interest if we don't reduce our debt load. Those older, cheap Treasuries will be maturing over the next decades, so the time to act is now. I'm in favor of raising taxes somewhat and cutting spending across the board (I think a lot of it is waste that could be caught in audits). But China doesn't factor in at all when it comes to debt concerns.
Thing is that as US will be issuing more bonds there's going to be little market for them. Back when 2008 crash happened, the only reason US pulled through was cause China stepped in to buy enough bonds to stabilize US market. Fat chance of that happening this time around.
Meanwhile, demand for dollar globally is dropping meaning that dollar based economy is starting to shrink. And major US allies are starting to have significant economic problems of their own, which means they're not able to bail US out.
China doesn't have the luxury of letting the US economy tank. If that were to happen there's not enough demand around to keep enough of their factories working to avoid their economy from tanking as well.
About 16% of China's exports in 2022 were to the USA. It would certainly be a significant hit, but to suggest there would no longer be adequate demand is unlikely to be true.
For example, Russian oil exports lost a lot of their direct importers, yet demand has not dropped significantly or in a way that is harmful for them. The volume of their exports has remained relatively constant, but the fraction of the total that different importing countries represent has changed. Even the price dip recovered.
as if they are in a role to make demands now lmao
Imagine thinking that China is not in a position to make demands. 😂
Imagine China can takeover the world. Yeah one can dream. We have a Putin already. 🤣 🤣
China is already the main trading partner for most countries in the world, and a bigger economy than US in terms of PPP. The only one who seems to be inhabiting the dream realm here is you.
As if our dear Uncle Sam does not trade 😭😭 Oh yeah by PPP Indian economy is larger than that of Japan and Germany combined too. Hurray India is an advanced economy now. Give the per capita figure a look and wake up.
You keep on laughing while you can there. Soon even the most propagandized elements of society are going to be forced to engage with reality. Then the rest of us will laugh. 😂
I guess you missed the news story about China defaulting on $1 trillion in US debt?
@ruck_feddit @yogthos doest the U.S. owe china almost a trillion as well?
The US pays it's bills. China defaulting devalues it's currency, making payment necessary in dollars. The US has a hard limit on how much yuan it will exchange for dollars to prevent a run on the currency. China cannot get enough dollars to pay the bill, while the US is the one country in the world to which China can't just say "lol no." Assets will be forfeit or one sided deals favoring the US will come out of this. The devaluation of the primary currency of a major trade partner means their goods cost less and their interest increases
US economy would collapse overnight without China, thinking that US has some sort of upper hand here is the height of comedy. US doesn't produce much of anything today, its industrial base is around 11% of its GDP, and there is no substitute for China which is central to most supply chains.
China needs buyers. If the US stopped buying from China, it would be the same situation in China. Their economies are so intertwined that a war between them, even just financially, would ruin both
China has plenty of buyers, that's the whole point of BRI and BRICS. Literally all of the world constitutes China's buyers with US being a small portion of that. China would be hurt by an economic war with US, but US would be completely devastated by it because US depends on essential products and commodities it can't get anywhere else. Meanwhile, people thought Russia would be ruined economically once being cut out of western economic system and here we are with even IMF now projecting growth for their economy. Incidentally, trade between China and Russia has already jumped to over 200 billion if you want to see an example of China replacing US with a friendly trading partner.
I want to point out that the fraction of imports/exports between the USA and China is roughly symmetric (by monetary value). In 2022, about 16% of China's exports were to the USA; in 2021, about 17% of the USA's imports were from China.
That being said, you're probably making a valid point about which items are flowing, not just the raw value of goods.
Also, I would think it's generally easier for a producer to find new buyers of what it's already producing, than for a buyer to find a new producer for what it needs.
Edit to add: If we look at the ratio "Exports/Imports", we have about 0.3 for the USA with China, and we have about 3.3 for China with the USA.