this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2024
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TenForward: Where Every Vulcan Knows Your Name

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I'm glad there is no money in the Federation. Unless you count credits. Which are not money. Unless you use thousands of them to pay the Barzans. Or give them to Starfleet officers to buy things like tribbles and drinks at Quark's.

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 2 months ago (4 children)

While Federation Credits are money, I was under the impression they were only really used when you want to buy stuff outside of the Federation from sellers who don't share the same socialist society that the Federation has. On a Federation world I believe they wouldn't have much value.

DS9 was not a Federation station, and the Bajorans were clearly ok with a capitalist presence. Giving Starfleet personnel a stipend seems pretty unavoidable if they want their officers to be able to partake in practically anything on DS9.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago (4 children)

But that gives them inherent value and would end up being traded internally. And then people would buy up stuff from outside the Federation and charge people in the Federation for those things in credits so that those people don't have to travel off-planet to get those desirable things.

And as I said, they gave thousands of credits to the Barzans, so credits are obviously worth something when exchanged back to the Federation too.

On top of that, in TOS, there is a scene where someone wagers with credits (conceptually, but it basically sounded like a thing). To add to that, credits were being used on Space Station K-7, a Federation space station, or Uhura would not have been able to purchase a Tribble and Cyrano Jones wouldn't have been there selling them.

I'm afraid we will have to accept that Federation economics makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I think it's more of a universal basic income sort of deal. Every federation citizen has all their needs met without being required to work. But that doesn't mean there isn't an economy or there's no money.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago (2 children)

But then we have this problem dialogue from First Contact:

Captain Jean-Luc Picard: The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century.
Lily Sloane: No money? You mean you don't get paid?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity. Actually, we're rather like yourself and Dr. Cochrane.

You could argue that he was simplifying things, but I think Picard would have understood that Lily was smart enough to not make that necessary. He could have just as easily said just said the "economics of the future are somewhat different" part without the money part and the whole section of dialogue would have made much more sense. Saying that money doesn't exist is pretty much just a lie.

So I still maintain that none of it makes sense because it's all contradictory.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I've always been interested by his family winery and the family who've worked for his family for generations. Like who owns the land? What do the workers get for working? If real organic wine is a premium product that can't be adequately replicated does that hint at a two-tier market?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm wondering why anyone would be a waiter in Sisko's father's restaurant in New Orleans.

"This is the Federation, son! It's a cashless society! There's a vast galaxy out there! You can be whatever you want to be when you grow up!"
"I wanna be a waiter at a New Orleans creole food restaurant."
"..."
"And work for a big old jerk!"
"Okay, we're going to get you DNA tested because I'm thinking I'm not your real father."

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

In a civilisation that can beam food to your table a waiter is a performer, not service staff. And I do believe there are some entertainers who would find satisfaction in putting on a performance for an audience of two, whose attention is going to be somewhere else most of the time.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

Presumably the Picard family owns the land. That’s why the Federation isn’t truly post-scarcity. They can’t replicate more wine estates in the French countryside. Nor chalets in the Alps, nor beach houses in Southern California.

Some people have those things. Others don’t. Maybe everyone gets a tiny apartment in NYC with a replicator and holosuite. I’d pass on that. I can’t stand being around people too much. I’d rather be working my own garden in the countryside, getting lots of fresh air and taking walks in the forest.

You can say that they will have holo versions of the countryside but we all know it’s not the same. Every time a character has wanted to spend all their time on the holodeck they were treated as having a mental illness or some kind of trauma and subjected to an intervention.

Gardening on the holodeck is no more meaningful than gardening in Stardew Valley and everybody knows it. That’s why real land like the Picard family owns has real value, and everything you can produce with a replicator and every experience you can have on the holodeck is ultimately meaningless. You might as well be living off food stamp-provided microwave dinners and playing video games all day, something you can do right now.

As for the real “meaningful” activity of traipsing around the galaxy meeting aliens and risking death every week, I think most people today would view that as incredibly reckless and irresponsible behaviour. The Enterprise is a ship full of families, not just crew! Why are they always taking them into mortal danger?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

I imagine it works the way sovereign citizens think it does. The Federation maintains trade within itself and other entities. A kind of fungibility has been established to facilitate that trade. Those units of fungibility, or 'credits', are given to citizens when they need to engage in extra-federation trade. Every citizen is probably guaranteed some portion of the total fungible capacity of the Federation for personal use.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

But that gives them inherent value

Yes.

and would end up being traded internally.

Maybe. But pretty much everything is provided for free on Earth (and presumably elsewhere in the Federation?), so while it has value, I imagine the vast majority wouldn't care, it'd be valueless to them.

And then people would buy up stuff from outside the Federation and charge people in the Federation for those things in credits so that those people don't have to travel off-planet to get those desirable things.

If replicators and such can provide basically everything free of charge, you'd have very little desire to earn money and buy things.

I don't really remember anything about the Barzans or the giving of credits to them, so I can't really talk about that.

And as for TOS, yeah, TOS is all over the place. They also have hundreds of mirror Earths, a German Nazi planet, Gangster Earth, etc. the whole series is a little all over the place and contradictory.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Maybe they only buy one and store the data within the replicators. Meow it’s free for all within the federation.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

This was commonly brought up on DaystromInstitute on reddit, but while DS9 is a Bajoran station it's run and maintained by Starfleet. Quark still has to "pay" for using the staion's power, using station personnel for repairs and maintenance, and likely some form of rent. In lieu of actually paying money to fulfill those debt, the equivalent amounts are credited to the station personnel. Which they can use to order drinks or meals, reserve the holosuite, play darts or dabo, and so on.

In one episode Inparticular, Sisko was leveraging into Quark about actually charging his rent..so it kinda lines up.

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 2 months ago

"Let's see, time to write a Star Trek episode. Says here the Federation doesn't use money. Welp, no idea how to write a story without it so... the Federation has money now. Man, this is easy!"

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

I think it works as a sort of reverse local currency that the federation administration exchanges at given rates for trade outside the federation, but cannot be spent within its domain and has no direct value to its citizens.

We also know that at least energy credits / transporter rations exist, so my guess is the actual currency is the power required to do things, like transport or replication. Average people in the federation probably have a fairly large allotment of energy to spend for themselves and rarely need any extra, so they have no real use for the currency aside from interacting with other cultures or possibly exchanging it with the federation's external commerce administration.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The UFP doesn't have an internal currency, per se, but other planets, species, etc do. In maintaining trade and relations they still provide goods and services which, depending on the race, would be more inclined to pay for it instead of trade or barter. Maybe those funds get distributed as sort of a UBI for all citizens, or added to a slush fund for those involved in said transactions? Bob the federation civilian has 10,000 Fed Credits, which can be used to purchase a bottle of Klingon Blood wine and hand crafted Mek'Leth the next time he catches a ride on a Federation transport to Qo'noS.

Maybe even on a starship, supply runs or something like it are done which ends in compensation of some sorts. Those funds can get distributed to the crew, so next time they're in port on another planet they can purchase local goods.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I like to think the federation can synthesize latinum but keep it under wraps for fear of disrupting/inflating their trade agreements.

Edit: s/platinum/latinum

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago
[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I just want a fucking replicator and a holodeck. I'd be set for life with those two things.

Also: Quark wouldn't accept credits would he? I thought he only cared about gold pressed latinum, which is treated like cash and even comes in various denominations (slips, strips and bars). IIRC from one of the first season episodes of DS9, Starfleet stationed there are given like 5 slips a week or something. Which is barely anything at all.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Quark is ferengi, he'll accept anything of value, for a modest fee of course oh and you'd have to factor in the premium for currency conversion + a little extra on top for the effort to go out and convert credits. Then there's also the middle man fee, the convenience fee and the using-credits-on-a-weekend fee...

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

Oh you’re using a different bank than we do, best to take all of that and add si-eventy percent to it.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago

Yes, I’d love to have my own wine estate in the countryside, just like the Picard family!

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I've always wondered about how they have to seemingly make the replicators suck at random shit, like how they can't just make the fancy new tricorders (Lower Decks S1E3, I think) and have to compete for the chance to win one.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

For TV writing, basically. If they actually used their technology to its full potential, the federation would never get into many of the problems they get into on the show.

Think of all those episodes where there’s intruders on the Enterprise or someone has gone missing but nobody noticed. What’s the first thing they do? Ask the computer to scan for life signs on the ship.

Turns out the computer is continuously monitoring the life signs of everyone on board! So why aren’t intruders immediately trapped with forcefields and security automatically notified? Why isn’t there an instantaneous, automatic amber alert when a crew member goes missing from the ship? Why aren’t injured/sick people automatically transported to sickbay instead of dying alone in their quarters or a low-traffic corridor?

The computer can also monitor life signs down on the planet, so it could and should transport people to sickbay instantly when they get injured. Otherwise, for dangerous planets with unstable atmospheres that block scanning and transporting they should not be sending crew down at all. Send probes! They can replicate tons of them, have them fly down to collect information, and return to orbit for rendezvous.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

I always wondered why there is so much emphasis on mining. Why use bajoran/holographic slaves when you can just transport the ore directly to your cargo bay?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

Plenty of episodes where crew members get trapped in caverns where the transporter can't reach and they have to set up pattern enhancers. I would assume the miners are done ng just that, setting up pattern enhancers to increase range to whatever they're trying to get to.

It also makes sense that ships would have overpowered, top of the line transporters and replicators. At least the best ships. I would assume that there are different spec l, lower quality devices in use. This was my main takeaway from lower decks. We're used to seeing the best of the best on the enterprise. So yeah, if all of Starfleet was that good, both tech and people, they wouldn't have so many problems. But it evidently isn't.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

Presumably the ore they’re mining can’t be transported safely at all because it’s explosive or something. It would also make sense that it can’t be replicated either, otherwise they’d just do that.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

It still sort of makes sense, as others mentioned for working with non-federation entities. But the money-less thing makes more sense to me if you have replicators. The only "cost" there is the material you use for the replicator. So even if you had a money society, things --should-- be dirt cheap since most even outside the federation should have a replicator.

In some ways, I think it'd be harder to have a money and market system when replicators exist.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (5 children)

I assume replicators have some non-trivial energy debt, too. If my memory were better, I might even remember an episode where replicators couldn't be used because they were on backup power. Like, compared to warp, it's nothing, but if the warp core or main dilithium generators are offline, replicators don't work.

I know we're in tenforward, but another good post-scarcity-except-when-not is Iain Banks' Culture. Intelligences still trade, but it's more information/skillset/favors based.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Replicators being unusable because of power shortages was an early plot point in Voyager, and there are things that can't just be replicated since they often had to trade with friendly civilisations that they encountered.

Of course, the real answer is that they went with whatever rules suited the plot at the time, consistency be damned.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

I wish they'd explored this more in Voyager, as rationing their energy reserves was always a narrative tension throughout the series. It would have been interesting to explore a crew used to post-scarcity economics have to wrangle with switching to scarcity economics and all of the problems that come with it.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago (5 children)

There is no money in the Federation itself. Places like DS9 however are not part of the Federation. It is easy to forget that because the Federation is in charge of daily operations of the station, but it is a Bajoran station, and they do have ultimate control.

Whenever we see monetary exchanges, it is with non-Federation species. Quark is Ferengi, and is operating a business on a Bajoran station. The Barzans were not Federation members at the time of the Barzans Wormhole episode.

While money isn't needed in daily life inside the Federation, when interacting with other species there needs to be some form of payment available to exchange for those goods and services. Starfleet clearly has some system for officers to use to pay for that stuff when operating out of places like DS9 or when vessels interact with species outside the Federation.

I think I remember an episode of Voyager where they are on a planet and "charging" purchases at a market to the ship. I'd assume those charges are totaled up and Voyager as a whole comes to some sort of trade arrangement to pay for it all instead of trying to figure it all out individually when it's not a situation where Starfleet is interacting with the species on a constant basis to have something like set exchange rates.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Living in the federation sounds great til Starfleet goes and provokes some horrific alien empire for the 9000th time

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Or the entire Federation gets taken over by some corrupt entity or entities. Or it's just inherently corrupt.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

How, exactly, people are corrupted when everyone else is pretty chill and they can't be bribed is always a bit of a puzzler.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's New Trek bullshit, and doesn't belong in Roddenberry's universe.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Uh dude your neck is doing that thing again

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This is head cannon and I can't really support it in universe but it's the only way the Federation economy makes sense to me.

Every Federation citizen gets an energy allotment that they can use to replicate anything that they need. The allotment is well beyond what's required to meet their basic needs. A Federation Credit is an allotment of a certain amount of energy that the holder can use to have the Federation replication something for them. The credits aren't particularly valuable to Federation citizen living in Federation controlled space because they are already allotted a large amount of energy.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, your head canon doesn't explain why credits were part of the negotiations with the Barzans for their wormhole. I suppose you could add the detail that the Federation was actually agreeing to provide a certain amount of energy to the Barzans. That might work. It would be a weird way to put it though.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

I suppose you could add the detail that the Federation was actually agreeing to provide a certain amount of energy to the Barzans.

That's pretty much what I was saying, maybe I didn't say it well.

A Federation credit is a right to use a certain amount of energy on a Federation replecator. So if a non Federation group wanted to get 10k self sealing stem bolts from the Federation then Starfleet would look up the energy requirement to replicate the stem bolts and divide that by how much energy is represented by one credit and that's how many credits the group would have to use to get the stem bolts.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Truly a paradise, except when it isn't

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Feels to me like we're almost at World War III, which starts in 2026 (as we all know). After that Zefram Cochrane is going to invent the warp drive and we're going to get there.

🎵 It's been a long road
Getting from there to here
It's been a long time
But my time is finally near
[...] 🎶

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

We could be in a post-scarcity world, if certain mentally unwell individuals had less power.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

There is money in every other series

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