Inevitable for some soldiers to go against instructions. Can't imagine what it's like to hear your two children have been killed...
this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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Hamas had a whole investigation and remediation in the space of days, in the middle of a war zone. Meanwhile we're still waiting to find out who killed Shireen Abu Akleh over 2 years ago.
Keep in mind it's always possible that they do this partly for PR. But at least they were transparent, even if they did in to look good. After all, next to Israel, anyone would look good.
No Israeli hostages so far suffered injuries from their guards while put in captivity. This incident was the exception.
Except for that were raped, but I guess since they're Israeli, that doesn't count?
Imaginary rape does not count. Not even when they are Israeli.
I think there probably were some? Pretty sure some released hostages described abuse and sexual assault.
I hate Hamas, as a Palestinian, but Hamas fighters are not demons... they are not angels either.
One started making claims of sexual assault 100 days after her release in the day 50 prisoner swap.
It was mentioned released hostages are pressured by the Israeli government into making false confessions. They tell them if they lie there will be more pressure on Hamas to release other hostages.
No physical signs of any abuse was found.
Thanks for pointing that out. No denying this. Is this about Amit Soussanna? Would be curious to see a timeline for that. But also as a rape victim myself, it took me years to finally come out and tell my parents what had happened. It's possible that she is lying, but also possible that she is saying he truth. It doesn't say anything politically about Hamas or Palestinians... it's just a thing that is likely to have happened.
The thing is, it would also be naive to assume that no sexual assault or abuse happeend. Even Hezbollah (a much more disciplined army) will have cases like that.
Rape happens all the time in war, but you're claiming it is happening in a particular instance so I'm gonna need you to cite that or edit the comment.
Sexual assault: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/26/middleeast/amit-soussana-israeli-hostage-hamas-sexual-assault-intl/index.html
Abuse: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hostages-held-hamas-describe-life-was-captivity-rcna126781
Do you hound everyone for citations or only in this case? Do you want proof that these people have had these testimonies or that these things actually happened?
Theyre literally citing the new York times, I asked for credible sources regarding the SA claim.
I do when there is a risk of atrocity propaganda.
Just because there are problems with the NYT does not mean this particular story is not credible. This woman is simply sharing her experinece. What evidence do you have to refute the claims of a rape victim? Should she not be taken as seriously as any other rape victim? Just because Israel can take advantage of such a story to justify genocide does not mean we can discredit the story without being intellectually dishonest.
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Amit never claimed she was raped. She claimed she was groped after changing her story quite a few times, each time becoming more extreme.
There is no doubt Israel would have loved her confession when she was released at the 50 day exchange. I cannot imagine them not asking her about it.
Hamas was wearing body cams during Al Aqsa flood. Despite rape being a common Israeli practice there is no shred of evidence to suggest Hamas raped anyone. The official UN report on war crimes stated no evidence of any rape by Hamas was found.
Whereas there are a multitude of reliable sources citing Israelis forces torturing and raping Palestinian prisoners until death. Not isolated incidents, but a multitude of seperate situations.
I never denied that and nothing I said points to anything against that. Some Hamas fighters still raped and abused some captives. This is reality. These people also have the right to have their story heard because it's just one part of the truth.
Cite the sexual abuse stuff from a reputable source, or edit your comment.
Before I do that can I say this?
I guess what you mean to ask is: was this part of the NYT report or not? Is that right?
And also, I agree that much of that report was BS, but is that enough to discredit every single story in it? You may pretty well be denying rapes that did take place. I have no reason to deny the testimonies of some of these women. Hamas fighters are not angels and it would be quite naive to assume that no rape happened. What I said does not suggest that Hamas carries out systematic rape. Maybe that is a claim more worth your time to moderate than "some victims came out and spoke out about sexual assault during captivity."
But if this is how things roll in this community then just ban me 😉
Here is a very long article discrediting the entire NYT article https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7
I highly doubt this was against instructions.
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That’s a far better response than anything Israel has said about killing journalists and children.
Isn’t it wild the terrorists are currently following international law closer than the established nation.
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I'll be honest, at this point it's no longer clear what purpose the hostages are serving anyway. The Israeli government is not negotiating for their return in good faith, and they haven't deterred the wholesale glassing of the Gaza strip. There is seemingly no legitimate interest in getting the hostages back alive. Even if you consider the token Israeli "protests" being organized, most of those people aren't actually demanding an end to the war. It's fairly obvious the hostages are no longer serving as useful bargaining chips (if they ever were). I can't say I really blame this guy.
In fact, one may even argue this was an act of mercy compared to the alternative of being indefinitely held prisoner in presumably pretty poor conditions, just waiting to be murdered by the IDF.
Part of me thinks it's propaganda not bargaining power. On several occasions the IDF has dropped bombs on or shot the hostages ~~accidentaly~~ wontonly. The message Hamas is maybe trying to send is that the IDF doesn't care about saving the hostages. The IDF just want to eradicate the Palestinians. Then again I'm halfway around the world so what do I really know?
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with you. It's definitely about the propaganda value and the perceived "moral high ground", but the real question is how much are those things actually worth in the current state of the conflict. At least in my view, sadly very little.
Were there no hostages Israel would never agree to a ceasefire. They would claim they need to eradicate Hamas no matter the cost. The massive demonstrations for a ceasefire inside of Israel are to get the hostages out. Not because they care for Palestinians.
Were there no hostages Israel would never agree to a ceasefire. They would claim they need to eradicate Hamas no matter the cost.
So... you mean like how things are already? That's the exact point I'm making, lmao.
The massive demonstrations for a ceasefire inside of Israel are to get the hostages out. Not because they care for Palestinians.
No shit. But what good is a "ceasefire" if it doesn't actually end the war? Hamas has no incentive to agree to hand over hostages if Israel is just going to resume bombing the shit out of Gaza as soon as they've been released, which is what most of the demonstrators actually want.
So… you mean like how things are already? That’s the exact point I’m making, lmao.
Yes but also no. The current conditions are largely the same but that is because no deal has yet been made.
With the hostages Hamas can demand things from a deal. Like the IDF permanently withdrawing from Gaza and releasing their Palestinian hostages. Without hostages there would be no way for Hamas to have any demands.
Hamas still holding the hostages is also physical hard evidence for the world to see how incapable the IDF is in achieving its stated objective of retrieving the hostages.
Furthermore the reason Israelis are demonstrating for a ceasefire is because of the hostages. It causes division and turmoil within Israel.
The hostages are the leverage Hamas have in a deal. Without them they have no leverage.
We will have to agree to disagree, I think.
You seem to be under the false assumption that the Israeli government actually cares about bringing any of the hostages home safely, when it's pretty obvious they don't. Their actions have shown this very clearly. The hostages can't be useful leverage if Israel doesn't give a shit about them in the first place.
Given that Israel's current governmental coalition is predicated on the continuation of the war, along with Bibi's own impending legal peril once he is forced out of his position, why would you think they would ever agree to any kind of deal? It's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that all these elusive "ceasefire negotiations" Israel has "participated" in, have been in bad faith the entire time. They literally assassinated Hamas' own lead negotiator! It's merely a carrot they can wave around to convince the western audience to keep supporting them, "See? A ceasefire deal is just around the corner so keep those weapons and money flowing!" 
This so called "division and turmoil" caused by the demonstrations sounds great and all, but it's ultimately inconsequential and amounts to less than nothing unless they plan on putting an end to the current regime.
“You seem to be under the false assumption that the Israeli government actually cares about bringing any of the hostages home safely, when it’s pretty obvious they don’t. Their actions have shown this very clearly. The hostages can’t be useful leverage if Israel doesn’t give a shit about them in the first place.”
Hannibal Directive
With the hostages Hamas can demand things from a deal. Like the IDF permanently withdrawing from Gaza and releasing their Palestinian hostages.
You have not kept up to date on Israel's statements on this. Israel wasn't even willing to commit to continuing the cease-fire after the hostages were released, let alone pull out for good.
Seriously, fuck Israel. A painful death to the Zionist Entity. 
I don't blame that man. Jesus, I hope he can find peace someday.
Their restraint is actually unbelievable and makes me question what I know about human resilience and dignity
It makes me feel like I am capable of incredible discipline
Seeing the tunnels makes me wonder about the future of civilization, about the projects we are capable of beyond capitalism's dampening constraints, and the primitive ones before it
That's wrong and the guards should be punished.
I don't agree
I think that Hamas fighters should listen to their superiors.
I don't think killing hostages is the right thing to do.
Have a hard time finding fault with this person for seeking revenge after hearing that his children were murdered.
So, the guard shouldn't have done this, but I can't say that I would do differently in his situation. If someone killed my child I would be looking for revenge as well.
I agree. But I don't think the person should be punished.
What if they said they would "heavily reprimand him with a stern talking to." That's a kind of punishment, sort of.
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