Asklemmy

I corrected my Dad on his hateful speach a few years back and he replied ”it’s my goal, just as it should be yours, to be better than my father”.

That has to be one of the most candid things he’s ever said to me.

Mine are dead, because I'm old as hell myself.

But it was quite different on each side of my family, with some minor interesting quirks.

Now, they were all nice enough. Even my one grandfather that was a fairly venomous racist was nice, even to black people. Hell, if anything he was nicer to black people than other whites. It's an old south thing.

Obviously, tolerance was not his strong suit when out of the public.

And that was true for my grandmother on that side as well. She was less vehement about it, and more of the habitual racist. You know the type, they don't hate black people, and don't even really have real problems with them, but they grew up with racism being the default, and see no reason to stop using slurs just because times have changed. But she'd never say anything mean to anyone.

Kinda weird shit tbh. I took one of my friends over to her house at one point, and whenever the subject of school came up, she'd remember him and ask "how is your n****** friend?". Wasn't being hurtful in her mind, she was genuinely asking after him because he was my friend. The south can be fucking nuts that way. Which, when I was younger than that time, my parents had sheltered me from the n word and what it really meant, which led to some funny but problematic confusion eventually.

On the other side, both grandparents were legit super tolerant. Like, my best friend is gay, and at one point they thought we were together, so they were inviting him to family gatherings. My black friends were always welcome, nothing ever even mentioned about race at all.

My grandfather was republican, but was a one issue voter (2a rights). He was otherwise progressive as hell. Like, there was this show in the eighties called "Soap". Billy Crystal got famous on it and played an gay man. He often said after the show would end that he didn't understand what the problem was, "there were sailors like that under my command. You didn't talk about such things, but they never bothered anyone, and they served their country with honor."

I worked as a bouncer off and on as a side gig, including for gay bars. My best friend was/is gay. So I ended up being active in gay rights support. Never had to worry about it being a problem. My grandfather said he was proud of me a few times, and while neither of them enjoyed seeing me bandaged and beat all to hell when either the job or the activism got ugly, they were pissed that people were like that, and never once suggested I should stop.

Now, that grandfather had served during some of the cold war and hated Russians. With a passion. So he wasn't free of prejudice entirely. That grandmother though, she never had anything bad to say about groups of people. And she'd tell my grandfather to shush his mouth when he'd watch the news and go on a Russia rant lol. Strangely, he never minded me being fairly friendly with socialist ideas. He'd argue the points of it, but never said I shouldn't believe any given thing.

I loved all of them. I still do, even my racist grandfather. It wasn't the totality of who he was, and I can love people that are flawed. Maybe if he'd lived longer, he could have changed. My grandmother that was racist did to some degree (switched to "colored" instead after my dad gave her hell once), and my dad and uncles rejected that bullshit early on, so that might have swayed him eventually. Or maybe he would have stayed just as bad, I dunno.

My folks are chill. My mom and her friends are passionately cool. My dad DGAF. He's cool, but he's also a charter boat captain which means lots of sportsmen so he has to be able to ignore/get along with anyone. He just gives a noncommittal grunt and steers the conversation back to fishing.

My father in law is okay. Ex cop so opposite of ACAB. Spouts Fox News bullshit, but he sat out the last election because he has like 8 granddaughters and at least one gay grandson. He's a good guy as long as you don't talk about anything political. He accepted my kid when they identified as trans for a bit. (Jury's still out. Don't care, they just don't seem committed to anything right now.)

His brothers, though, what fucking assholes. I have to tolerate them for my wife's sake because she can't deal with family strife but I actually had to sit in a public restaurant with one of them making buck teeth and shouting "Ching Chang Chong" when saying something insulting about Asians, then "oh but now I'm racist." Right you are, motherfucker. Disgusting. Humiliating.

My ability to even mildly rebuke them is limited by my need to keep the peace for my wife. But if I could I'd just tell them to let me know when they are done acting that way, and I'd get a drink at the bar.

IIRC, the Americans with Disabilities Act was a product of protest. People across the country one day blocked buses and intersections, and now we have curb cuts, automatic buttons at doors, handle bars in public shitters, etc. (any corrections welcome, it was a podcast I listened to 2 years ago, I'm not American)

I wonder if your 80 nana benefits from any of those on a regular basis?

They grew up in a different era, and as people get older it's harder for them to let go of backward ideas. Even my mother, a fervent feminist, from time to time makes transphobic comments that are born more out of ignorance than anything else. Sometimes she seems to understand and other times she doesn't seem to want to understand. My father, on the other hand, is also generally a good person, but his machismo and homophobia are very strong. One day he had said that he would rather shoot himself if he found out that any of his children were Gay, that phrase still haunts me and prevents me from being more open with my bisexuality. I love him dearly, but he is far from perfect. I don't know what my grandmother's political views are, but she has always come across as loving and receptive. She taught me to Crochet even though I was a man, she insisted that I pay no attention to anyone who told me it was a woman's thing. Despite this, she is a simple woman and very disconnected from the outside world, and from what my mother has told me, there was a time when she was terrible. Old people are... Complicated.

"When will there be straight pride month?"

No.

Yepp, pretty typical. I have family that calls themselves progressive and say similar shit to yours.

I pretty much resorted to considering them all dead.

It’s pretty funny when they wonder why I don’t come around anymore. “It’s because of you, you bigoted racist piece of garbage fuck.”

My parents, yes absolutely. They are responsible for me growing up to be a tolerant, left-leaning person in a mostly conservative rural area. Being boomers, they might not be up to date with all the current LGBT terms or things like that, but they definitely have/had an open mind and don't judge people.

My paternal grandparents (born in the 1910s and 1920s) were very religious. My dad had to suffer a very strict upbringing under them. He was not allowed to read comics, watch TV, read sci-fi novels etc (though he did all of these things in secret). I only knew them as a child when they were already in their 80s and they were nice to me, but from what I've heard from my dad not necessarily nice people, and definitely not tolerant.

My maternal grandma (never knew my grandpa) rarely ever talked about politics or society or anything. She was a very down-to-earth person. That said, she definitely held some bigoted views in the form of prejudice against foreigners. She had major reservations when some Turkish people moved in next door. She eventually became friends with them though, so she managed to overcome her prejudice. I'd say she was a nice person.

Mom is cool, super accepting. My dad is a weirdo trumper. My MIL is also accepting of many but is a bit racist and not yet accepting of trans folks.

All the grands were worse. The surviving one isn't overtly so but is passive aggressive about it, so better than my dad at least.

my grandparents have passed away now, but when i knew them they were unfailingly polite in public.

in private, Grandma had reservations about japanese people. i gave her leeway. Pearl Harbor was bombed on her birthday, and Grandpa went to Iwo Jima. i still felt i could bring a japanese boyfriend around, and as long as i was happy, he'd be treated right. Grandpa didn't even suggest reservations. he took everyone as an individual worthy of respect until their behavior suggested differently.

my parents are in their 60s now, but i don't have contact with them for other reasons. the last time i looked at my mom's twitter i thought she had been hacked, the MAGA rhetoric she was spewing was so awful. not hacked, just an asshole.

My dad ain't nice but he can be tolerant, my mum can be nice but her extremely narrow worldview does not let her be tolerant, and my grandma is neither nice nor tolerant. Never met really met my other grandparents to comment.

They never challenged their conservative upbringing, and never faced progressive values until well into their adulthood, since social issues move at a glacial pace where I'm at. I don't blame them for having those values at some point, but they should strive to change (well, my parents at least).

My maternal grandmother - extremely nice and sweet, died of breast cancer when I was a kid so I don't remember much else about her.

My maternal grandfather - convicted for soliciting an underage prostitute (undercover cop), that's all I know about him and it's enough. Not sure if he's even alive.

Paternal grandparents - psychotic religious fanatics (burned our Harry Potter and Mickey the sorcerer books while babysitting when I was a baby, killed multiple of my dad's pets growing up, etc). Have only seen that grandmother when the grandfather died and at a Christmas party a month later - still psychotic and super rude.

My parents - nicest people you'll ever meet, I have basically no bad memories from being raised (except my dad only makes broccoli and cauliflower by microwaving it)

My parents are still very Mormon, which means being openly bigoted is bad manners. That said, I don't think I ever visit without my dad saying something about climate change being a hoax, illegals voting in California, wildfires being part of some AntiFa conspiracy, etc. Can't tell whether he sincerely believes this nonsense or is just trying to get a reaction. I try not to engage other than asking where he learned about it and how he's tried to fact check it. These discussions are not productive, and I don't visit unless it's a major holiday or someone's birthday.

Mom, yes. Dad, no.

Dad's a bigot that doesn't understand why he can't use "those kind of words" these days so he rants about it in private.

HOWEVER...he would never say it to their face, he's at least THAT self-aware. And for the most part, he wouldn't hassle them (or anyone).

While his personal beliefs are most certainly bigoted. He's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-indigenous (we're in Canada), anti-immigrant (he himself IS a fucking immigrant...smh)

But his biggest trait is simply live and let live. He doesn't agree with them, but he has no interest in forcing that disagreement upon them.

He basically believes in everyone minding their own damn business regardless of what they may personally believe.

My Dad died almost 20 years ago and I went NC with my abusive mother at about the same time. I never knew my grandparents.

I wanted to add my data to the set, even if it doesn't help much.

Well my dad was chill until he would see a nazi because he is a ww2 vet or know a person beating their wives or anything similar. He always felt since he fought for the world that it was his so called destiny to make society better. Don't know if that is chill or not but I can say that while he may yell and stuff he would never do anything. It was always mom who spanked us with a belt when we fucked up.

Check out Christian Welzel’s work on how values have changed over time. The world is becoming more secular and more democratic. Secular in this context means that religion plays less and less of a role in every day life. Democratic in this context means that they believe everyone should be able to pursue their interests and we should have a system that increases all of our capabilities to pursue our interests.

An implication of adopting democratic values is that you understand that your identity is not defined by “white”, “able-bodied”, or whatever, but by the fact that we are aware. By doing this, you’re not giving special treatment to your in-group (whichever it may be), but you’re considering all of humanity (and all aware beings) as equals and as a group that you belong to. Cosmopolitanism is an example of this stance.

Something else that is happening is that the world is becoming more reflexive. Check out Anthony Giddens’ texts on this.

But, to answer your question directly, yes, grandparents and parents are generally less welcoming and less tolerant.

I’m sorry, OP. I come from a family like this and the best decision I made was to go away for University and make friends whose views and values aligned better with mine.

Same thing when I found a job. I “made” my own (non-biological) family, if that makes sense. I see my blood relatives at holidays and other events, say the required hellos and goodbyes, and leave when I’m ready.

I don’t have time for that shit. And I know it’s hard to see people you love behave this way, but you obviously turned out differently and that means that you can do better…and maybe even inspire some of the younger folks in your family in the process.

My dad couldn't be cooler. My grandmother and all her friends are very chill too. My grandfather is sometimes grumpy and weird about stuff, but shuts up or changes his mind about it pretty quickly. My mother, and probably that whole part of the family, is pretty conservative-right. Not very nice.

None of them are obviously bigoted but all of them are complacent at the very least and some of them are certainly internally bigoted and it seeps out

Can I ask why you can't let them talk their nonsense? I know you don't think you can change them so if you choose to hang out with them, why can't you just let them be them? I'm not telling you that you should hang out with them, just that joining in on their discussion is a zero sum game.

I chose not to interact with family any longer and haven't spoken to any of them in years. Not out of anger or spite but simply because none of us were getting anything positive from the relationship.

Mother: Had a very old timey demeanor, perhaps due to her age when it all happened. Was nice but also had that obligatory TV Land level of strictness/sternness. Surprisingly understanding of issues of race, religion, disability, etc. but I had to come out of the closet several times since she didn't really understand asexuality, which I guess based on her upbringing in the world's most interesting place is understandable. She also remarked some of the traditions I picked up pieces of later in life seemed convoluted, though did not elaborate on this commentary.

Father: Very different from my mum aside from being from a different part of the same area. He was carefree and I guess nice, but, for technical reasons, also distant from me. It was a very "implied love" type of dynamic. He was tolerant of almost everyone, but if someone were to call our family "all that and a bag of chips", he consistently considered me the bag of chips, and the weird salt and vinegar kind, to use an analogy. He also showed signs of being annoyed with my special needs.

Grandfather: Most considerate person ever. He gets a perfect score in love and tolerance, even if he seemed quietly upset at my less-than-worldly habits.

Other grandparents: Never knew them that well, if at all.

more or less. my grandparents are already dead, but as far as i remember the last one living of them which i had contact with (my mother's mother) was ok with lgbtq+ people (as far as defending their right to marriage) and quite concerned with the rights of disabled, but was somehow racist towards black and indigenous people, and could not stand demonstrations of social movements (i.e. sit-ins from landless workers and squatters, strikes and the like). my parents go about the same, but my mom is much less racist.

My mom is nice and tolerant, she's pretty much the archetypal mom, she's friends with everyone, caring, etc. she doesn't always "get" some of the more modern "woke" ideas like trans gender identities, institutional racism, etc. but she makes an effort to understand them and generally keeps an open mind, and probably most importantly understands that she doesn't necessarily need to "get" something to be accepting of it. As an example, one of my sister's best friends since childhood is some sort of nonbinary, and my mom had a really hard time wrapping her head around they/them pronouns, and just kind of generally didn't understand it. That said, she still makes an honest attempt to use the correct pronouns, and understands that regardless of how they refer to themselves, what they look like, etc. it's still the same person my sister has been hanging out with since preschool, who is always welcome in our home and is essentially regarded as her 3rd child, and that's really the important thing.

My dad, in general, I'd say is somewhat begrudgingly tolerant. I suspect that if he wasn't stuck with my mom, my sister, and me he probably would have gotten sucked down some alt right Fox news rabbit hole, but since we've all been around he's kind of accepted that he's wrong, but hasn't necessarily gone so far as to try to be right. He's kind of the picture of "old-person racist" he doesn't outright dislike people of different races, but he doesn't try very hard to see past stereotypes either. As far as being nice, in general he's awkward, not unpleasant but not really someone who's oodles of fun to talk to, but when he gets a bug up his ass about something he's an asshole.

My grandfather on my mother's side died before I was born, everything I've ever heard about him makes him sound like a fun, nice guy, though people often don't like to talk ill of the dead, so hard to say. As far as how tolerant he was or wasn't, I can't really say, the two data points I have are that

1. He'd loudly complain about the "dagos" when the local Italian church had their feast because people would come in from out of town and just kind of have picnics on any open patch of grass including their front lawn and leave a bunch of trash behind, and really while the slur was unnecessary, I can totally get why that would upset him. He didn't have animosity towards Italians in general, it just happened that the out of towners littering on his lawn were Italian.

2. My mom played with black kids growing up, and was kind of surprised when she got older that the civil rights movement was a big deal because she lived through it and she never remembered there being any fuss about the black people in town, so at the very least my grandparents weren't outwardly racist in her youth.

Beyond that it's kind of hard to say.

My grandmother on that side I wouldn't exactly say was nice, she was a loud, cranky busybody, and by most accounts was pretty much all her life. I may be a little unfair to her because her personality and mine just didn't jive very well, but still I think most people could agree that she was a little extra. She also got a bit racist in her old age, and it's hard to say if it was just the dementia talking or not. She did live a pretty interesting life, traveled a bit, and had a pretty active social life, so at least some people found her pleasant to be around.

On my dad's side, my grandmother died when I was a kid. She was always very nice, I can't say how tolerant she was, that just never really came up. That said, she had been a drinker for much of her life, and from what I understand her kids from different marriages got treated pretty differently, and she was pretty nasty to one of my dad's half sisters, doted on another, and my dad was kind of somewhere in the middle, and some of that favoritism kind of spilled over to my generation, she never treated my sister or I badly, but I can see now that she favored my cousins over us a bit.

My grandfather is probably the most interesting case here. He was very much one of God's own prototypes. He had a lot of personality, and was never one to shy away from a fight or argument, so if he was nice kind of depended on if he liked you or not. He was a bit of a womanizer, so on one hand he could be at least superficially nice when he wanted to be, but also didn't necessarily respect women the way he should have, though he was never violent or abusive to them.

As far as tolerance goes, there were plenty of people out there of all colors, creeds, and classes that he didn't like for a great many reasons, some good, some not so good, but I never once heard him make a disparaging remark about someone's race. Having served in the Pacific in WWII, he did have sort of a weird grudge against Japan that he never let go of, but it was more against the county of Japan itself, not of japanese people, not of japanese countries, and certainly not against japanese Americans. Terms like "colored" or "jap" never quite left his vocabulary, but they were never said with any malice, they were just a holdover from a time when those words were more acceptable.

He worked as a bus driver for most of his life. On one of his routes, there was a stop near a business that employed a lot of black women. There are still some older black women in the area who remember him for driving the bus because he was the only driver who would wait at that stop to make sure they could catch the bus when they got off work because the bus came at the same time they would be leaving, other drivers would just keep driving if they weren't there when the bus came.

I doubt he ever thought too deeply about this, but given his age, he would have started driving a bus at around the same time the civil rights movement was really picking up steam and when bus boycotts and freedom riders and such were happening in other parts of the country (were from the north and the local buses had never been segregated in our area.) which is kind of wild to think about.

He ended up in a nursing home in his last years, had a black roommate for a while that he got along great with, there was a lot of black staff there that he spoke highly of and they all seemed to get a kick out of him (he was probably one of the more cognitively with-it, and certainly one of the most ambulatory patients there, coupled with his naturally big personality he was kind of a novelty, and he honestly kind of thrived in a nursing home environment, he didn't have to worry about cooking or cleaning and he thought that was pretty much the best thing ever)

If your grandma grew up post WW2 then she did not grow up during Nazi Germany.

I know that’s just one detail but you got it wrong and it makes me wonder if you aren’t highly motivated to misinterpret what she says.

Have you tried directly telling her how you’re hearing what she’s saying, instead of going straight to the sarcasm?

Mine are old, but I have in-law and ex-out-law old people around and it's a mixed bag. Certainly nobody who would complain about the mix of Olympic athletes, but ex MOL will complain about welfare queens even though she herself got welfare to get through nursing school and has to know that statistically that's how most people use it. And they will gather and whine.

I think my kids see me as progressive, their dad as actively and harmfully regressive, their stepdad (my husband) as old and not able to keep up with change, too conservative but not hateful.

Funnily enough, they don’t hate black people, only refugees and those who steal our jobs, but not everyone, just those stealing low paid jobs, the doctors are great because (idk)

Dad’s just islamophobic, well, less phobic and more islamo-hating, but only if they have X children and don’t work.

I just hate everyone equally.

My father was very anti-categorization, and actively challenged anyone with such mindsets. He'd stare people down on the subway that glanced at him. He'd call out anyone that made a remark about him regarding anything and labelling him or anyone else as "you people". He went into great detail in his explanation to me that people, even when homogeneous ethnicity, will categorize others automatically based on traits, often putting individuals into catch-all boxes mentally. And how it can or could be overcome.

At the same time, he loved a good ethnic joke. Even self-deprecating ones. One of his favourites was:

The Scotsman takes his son to the market fair. They buy a watermelon and consume it with gusto.

A year later they go to the market fair again. The son asks if he can have a drink. To which the Scotsman replies:

Beer after melon?

Depending on how old you are, and whether you are financially dependent on them, I would tell them to go fuck themselves. I'd also tell your grandma the world is changing, she's gonna die soon, and there's nothing she can do to change either one. Flip them the bird and walk out.

Obviously, personalities are different. This might not work for you, but you can't just fight back with facts because they refuse to play that way. If they want to throw this kind of shit your way, you have no obligation, nor should you, play by the rules of "they go low, we go high". That's always been bullshit anyway. Especially in a situation like this.

My mom is. That’s about it. My grandparents are all passed now, but they were mostly either racist, or highly opinionated with little regard for evidence.

I don't have any living ones, but at least on my mom's side they seem to have been pretty nice people. Can't say much about my grandpa in his elderly age since he died when I was fairly young, but my grandma was sweet, whether she was just at home or out and about.

Can't say much for my grandpa on my dad's side since I don't remember him, but from what I've heard from stories from my parents, he may not have been the nicest person in general. Definitely glad I didn't grow up with him because I remember a story my dad told of him breaking a dish at his house and then hiding in a closet, not knowing how he'd react to the broken dish or something like that. Something like that. Thankfully my dad is absolutely nothing like how his dad sounded. And my grandma on his side didn't seem much better, considering when my mom was pregnant with my oldest brother she tried to get my dad to ditch her.

Edit:

I've been told before that my mom absolutely wouldn't let me or my older brothers be alone with my grandpa on my dad's side.

Edit Edit:

As for tolerant, I can't speak for any of them that much, but I at least know my grandpa on my dad's side had to have some degree of tolerance considering he was gay and at one point had a partner. I assume being married to my grandma was more of one of those societal pressures back then. Just getting married in general, even if it ends in a divorce like their marriage did.

My grandma used to be, but years of Facebook right-wing propaganda has poisoned her.

Now she spouts conspiracy talking points about the "trans agenda" immigration, and so forth.

My parents have always been pretty right wing but covid pushed them even farther.

They aren't hardcore MAGA nuts, but they are pretty pro Trump, especially my dad. They also buy the propaganda from Fox news hook, line, and sinker.

I think we all have some things that we either don't talk about to maintain relationships. Of course usually thats respected by both sides.

Do they care that you call them out? Do you dislike doing it? If neither happens it can be useful for people to realize they're not necessarily holding a position that "everyone does". It's useful to be taken out of your bubble I think, and to see "regular people" can have different positions, and maybe try and understand why they do. It might change someone's mind.

If course if they or you get worked up by the discussion and no one is getting anything out of it, no one is even 'agree to disagree' and it's just causing everyone stress... Then you need to clearly lay out that you don't like those sorts of comments.

If they ignore you, then you need to decide how much you want the relationship. You could say "I'm serious about these comments. If you don't want to stop then you need to decide how much you want to see or interact with me. Because I am willing to just avoid these discussions, but I will not keep hearing these comments, and will stop coming."

Very. I'm lucky that my family is mostly liberal.

Yeah, my parents are perfect, my grandparents are like ~80% there. One side is a bit religious conservative (thankfully anti-Trump), and the other side's grandfather has an odd idea that all black people naturally don't want to work. Other than that one sentiment, he isn't racist in the slightest, but he insists that's the case.

My Grandad is quite progressive. My Dad on the other hand is. Not. Most of that side of the family is quite progressive.

My mothers side is a mixed bag Mum is progressive, omi definitely isn't and the aunts and uncles are all over the spectrum.