this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2024
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[–] [email protected] 141 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (8 children)

So I read a bit of Mozilla’s documentation about this feature. It sounds like they’re trying to replace the current practices with something safer. Honestly, my first thought is that this is a good thing for two reasons.

  • It’s an attempt to replace cross site tracking methods, which are terrible
  • Those of us that fight against ads, tracking, etc. can simple use typical methods to block the api. Methods that were already using (I think)

If both of these are true, then it could be a net positive for the world. Please tell me if I’m wrong!

[–] [email protected] 35 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Sometimes I just get tired of having to fight against software to have it behave in a semi-decent way. The same way you technically "can" run a decent windows installation after removing/disabling/blocking a ton of stuff, I don't really want a browser that can be trusted after you had to tinker with dozens of settings to just get back to basic non-intrusive behavior.

I said this in another thread on the same topic somewhere else, but considering user tracking as an inevitability that we have to accept means we've already lost on that front.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago

Wow. I 100% agree with you here.

There’s an element of trust when you buy a product. You trust that the product itself isn’t malicious and is intended to help you in some way. E.g. “This food is safely prepared and won’t poison me.” Harvesting user data and advertising really violate that trust.

Though it is worth noting that we don’t buy web browsers. We simply use them for “free“.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Sadly, tracking is the only way to perform attribution without help from the browser. Tracking is terrible for privacy, because it gives companies detailed information about what you do online. While Firefox includes many privacy protections that make it more difficult for sites to track you online (Enhanced Tracking Protection, Total Cookie Protection, Query Parameter Stripping, and many other measures), there’s a huge incentive for sites to find ways around these in order to perform attribution. Our hope is that if we develop a good attribution solution, it will offer a real alternative to more objectionable practices like tracking.

"Our hope is, that if we transfer the bank robber some of our money in advance, they'll not come in and rob all of it."

No! Jail the fucker!

[–] [email protected] 16 points 4 months ago (1 children)

While I appreciate your sentiment, this just isn’t realistic in the current state of the world. First, you need to make these kind of tactics illegal enough to incarcerate a person. Second, you need to expand and enforce this law globally. We definitely need this level of global cooperation, but are also soooo far away from achieving it

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I mean they don't have to literally jail advertisers (although I'd love that). I'd agree with hefty fines. Which, while not perfect, several EU laws have shown is possible unilaterally (e.g. Apple allowing third party app stores in the EU, albeit kicking and screaming).

I agree that it's a mountain to climb, but we sure won't reach the summit if we walk in the other direction.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I agree.

Imagine a world where Chrome doesn't exist and instead Firefox + privacy preserving attribution is the default for all of the people who won't listen to your reasons why they shouldn't use chrome or say "I don't need privacy, I have nothing to hide".

It seems like Mozilla is trying to do the browser equivalent of shifting the overton window and I'm for that.

However I'll be monitoring them very very closely.

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[–] [email protected] 100 points 4 months ago (20 children)

Mozilla has added special software co-authored by Meta and built for the advertising industry

No thanks, I’ll pass

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[–] [email protected] 67 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

I mean people freaking out about this don't actually understand what's happening and why Mozilla is doing it. Mozilla is trying to build a new privacy-based advertising. The feature needs to be opt-in by default in order to have a chance to become mainstream. Forget about the technical details and whether the user understands what it is. Most people don't change default settings. So they can never get websites to try this better technology if their own users aren't adopting it.

I also hate the attitude of this community they think Firefox is built for them(ultra tech savy, extremely privacy concious) when 99% of their users are not these things. If you want ultra privacy, go use Libreawolf or whatever. Those solutions are for that type of person. Firefox and Mozilla builds for the average person, which is why they correctly say that the user won't understand the feature. (Anyone says otherwise is in a tech bubble and haven't seen normal people interacting with their computers).

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 months ago (2 children)

99% of their users are not these things

I don't think so. People using Firefox are freaking evangelists trying to spread privacy. And if Firefox should lose those people, it will truly be the end

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago (3 children)

99% was referring to them not being both tech savy and extremely privacy conscious. I don't disagree that the appeal of Firefox is better privacy. I just don't think the average user is looking to absolutely remove every drop of data collected. I mean just look at the default Firefox homepage it comes with. It has sponsored shortcuts and sponsored stories. They put them there because the average user actually clicks on them. If everyone was privacy conscious like you say, they would turn off the feature and Firefox wouldn't keep it because they don't make money from it. But that's obviously not the case.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago

FF users include both normal people and freaking evangelists trying to spread privacy.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Privacy based advertizing:

  1. Develop ad

  2. Think about what websites your target demographic will probably frequent. (Be creative, dear marketing person! You can do it! This is the essence of what you're getting paid for!)

  3. Pay those sites to display your ad

Done.

Forget about the technical details and whether the user understands what it is.

No. Why? It's simple. They are collecting data I don't want the ad networks to have instead of the ad networks and give it to the ad networks. That's only more private than the status quo if I'm okay with them to have this data and trust them to handle it responsibly. Which I have no reason to.

which is why they correctly say that the user won't understand the Feature.

See explanation above. That's not too complicated to explain to a person that managed to turn on the computer. It only gets complicated when you try to follow the mental gymnastics you need to think this feature adds privacy for anybody.

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[–] [email protected] 45 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Look, everything is going to disappoint us. Everything runs off a profit motive, and it turns out profit is immoral.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 months ago (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] 40 points 4 months ago (2 children)

To disable:

user_pref("dom.private-attribution.submission.enabled", false);
[–] [email protected] 28 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Alternatively you can do the same through Settings -> Privacy & Security -> Website Advertising Preferences and uncheck "Allow websites to perform privacy-preserving ad measurement"

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 months ago

Yup, but that's already mentioned in the article. Thought I'd give people the exact userpref, so they can modify their custom user.js if they have one.

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 4 months ago

From the article, quoting a Firefox dev explaining the decision:

@McCovican @jonny @mathew @RenewedRebecca Opt-in is only meaningful if users can make an informed decision. I think explaining a system like PPA would be a difficult task. And most users complain a lot about these types of interruption.

In my opinion an easily discoverable opt-out option + blog posts and such were the right decision.

puts on They Live glasses

@McCovican @jonny @mathew @RenewedRebecca If we had made it opt in, then not a single human being on the planet would have enabled it, and we didn’t want that

[–] [email protected] 29 points 4 months ago

Explaination from the article:

The way it works is that individual browsers report their behavior to a data aggregation server (operated by Mozilla), then that server reports the aggregated data to an advertiser's server. The "advertising network" only receives aggregated data with differential privacy, but the aggregation server still knows the behavior of individual browsers!

[–] [email protected] 29 points 4 months ago

Sad to see Mozilla being managed into the ground, betraying their principles and selling their users.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 months ago

So all browsers except some forks of Firefox are cooked now/soon?

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 months ago (1 children)

So is it safe to assume that alternate builds of Firefox (Pale Moon et al) will be probably removing that "feature" ?

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 4 months ago

Mozilla pays its CEOs millions and millions of dollars. They exist to get funding from Chrome to look like there is competition in the industry.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Should I now ditch Firefox for Librewolf?

Edit: I just did that

[–] [email protected] 15 points 4 months ago

Default Firefox is becoming more and more unusable. I hope distros will start switching to something like Librewolf as the default browser in the future or heavily (and visibly) change the default Firefox config themselves.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Honest question, why does the fediverse like firefox so much? This is not a common opinion to have on the internet, but everyone here and on mastodon seems to have it.

[–] [email protected] 83 points 4 months ago (6 children)

Because otherwise you'd be supporting the Chromium monopoly, and that's the biggest sin imaginable in the Fediverse.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Sin? I just want there to be competitors.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Firefox is the competition.. To market dominated Chromium.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I'm not in favor of talking about the Fediverse like it is a data monopoly like META or reddit. Lots of people make this place work in operations and content. Seems not that cool to slam them.

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[–] [email protected] 71 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Because it is FOSS and responsible for many great contributions to apis that make the web what it is. It has history that goes way back. It has been decently transparent, certainly when compared to its closest competitors. It isn’t Google. It has a massive library of extensions. They aren’t planning to deprecate manifest v2.

Don’t get me wrong, I also like other browsers and I’m looking forward to seeing what comes from the servo reboot. But Firefox is bread and butter and there is often drummed up nonsense about it.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 4 months ago

Mozilla also maintains fantastic JS docs

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 months ago

Oh wow, that needs to be off by default like yesterday. 💀

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Is there a list anywhere of this and other settings and features that could/should certainly be changed to better Firefox privacy?

Other than that I’m not sure I’m really going to jump ship. I think I’m getting too old for the “clunkiness” that comes with trying to use third party/self hosted alternatives to replace features that ultimately break the privacy angle, or to add them to barebones privacy focused browsers. Containers and profile/bookmark syncing, for example. But if there’s a list of switches I can flip to turn off the most egregious things, that would be good for today.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 4 months ago

Just use LibreWolf; I’m not up to speed on this stuff but I more or less believe the hype that it will protect my privacy simply by taking Firefox and adding an ad blocker for me and disabling all the shit for me

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Anyone see the option to turn it off on Android phones?

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