this post was submitted on 08 Sep 2023
309 points (94.5% liked)

Technology

59217 readers
2949 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Why This Award-Winning Piece of AI Art Can’t Be Copyrighted::Matthew Allen’s AI art won first prize at the Colorado State Fair. But the US government has ruled it can’t be copyrighted because it’s too much “machine” and not enough “human.”

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 118 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Allowing people to copyright A.I generated art could lead to huge issues where someone could just churn out generated images like no tomorrow and throw out copyright claims left and right. It could even lead to situation where you can't really create any art because it's probably something that's already been generated by someone or close to it.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That's what I have been saying. If the courts rule that AI generated art is copyright able. What stops some multi-billionaire from copywriters basically every logical arrangement of words or images or whatever. Heck they would probably even offer to fund employing the copyright office with contractors that they pay for to speed up the process and the government would say it's a good thing because they are saving taxpayer money...

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

To file an infringement suit they'd need to have paid registration for each work which, even for the exorbitantly rich, wouldn't be remotely feasible for all logical arrangements of words/images. There's probably not even enough space in the Universe or time until its heat death to generate and store all such images.

Even if they did, copyright doesn't protect against against independently created works that happen to be similar or even identical - so they wouldn't be exhausting some limited set of possible works by doing so.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This is more of an issue with copyright law than of A.I. content generation. All you really need to do is create an algorithm that creates images based on every combination of pixels. There were a couple of lawyers who did this with melodies by creating an algorithm to generate every combination of 12-note, 8-beat melodies. One of the lawyers has a TED Talk where he goes into more detail with the issues of copyright laws: https://youtu.be/sJtm0MoOgiU

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 92 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Making AI art not copyrightable is probably the best reasonable alternative that we could hope for.

Companies are always looking to cut costs and getting some computer algorithm to churn out endless art without having to pay an artist would be a corporate holy grail. Except that if that artwork then can't be copyrighted and thus monetized (or not as easily monetized), then it ruined or at least lessens their push to replace all their workers with AI.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)

They will just churn out pictures from midjourney and hire a cheap artist to touch them up and then copyright that.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

That's basically what they did for the intro to Secret Invasion on Disney+. They used AI to create it and then touched it up. It still looks like shit, much like the show itself.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's an interesting thought, that could potentially create corporate day jobs for artists.

Edit: I don't believe in this idea, but thought it interesting. It's better for artists to exercise creativity.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 66 points 1 year ago (5 children)

The real solution is to abolish copyright

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)
load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 52 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is a very delicate and complicated matter, part of me thinks that making AI works non copyrightable would incentivize human art

[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Given the presence of stolen artwork in the training data I don’t see why it should be copyright able.

Also award winning? It honestly looks like the kind of liminal mindfuckery most models could output. There’s nothing particularly impressive with the piece.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

iirc it was submitted to a small art contest without disclosing it's AI generated and it won a prize... which made a lot of people very mad

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

If this is the one in thinking of, they disclosed it was made using midjourney, but the judges didn't know what that meant and didn't ask.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

Eh. I've seen abstract art that people are in awe with throughout my life. And like the uneducated swine I am, I've never thought they were impressive either.

Art appraisers are weird.

Edit: I saw the piece in question. This one is a tricky one, because if a human painted it, it would be impressive. Very nice details. But since it was generated by a machine in minutes..... eh.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

But according to the article, it wasn't generated in minutes. The artist went through over 600 iterations of tweaking the prompt to get what he wanted. Sounds like days or even weeks of work probably. And then made additional tweaks via Photoshop.

Not too say that makes it any more impressive, but it wasn't something that was without effort.

load more comments (6 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago

I agree completely. I think this is the best solution to the AI replacing human artists problem. Big companies can't use AI to replace humans because if they do, whatever they make will be ineligible for copyright and everyone will be free to rip them off.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I just want to point out that the description beneath the image in the article is hilarious.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

This is Allen’s AI-generated artwork, which we can publish without asking him because, as the article notes, it’s not eligible for copyright protections.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago (5 children)

This will change the first time a big pharma pill designed by AI hits the market.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Or really anything that's more practical than art.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Drugs are patented, not copyrighted, and handled by the US Patent Office. This is a decision by the US Copyright Office.

Not the same thing, and I would not be surprised if the Patent Office decides drugs designed in part with AI tools can still be patented, while the Copyright Office decides art cannot be copyrighted.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I would agree. Right up until the guy pulled it into Photoshop to make tweaks, adjustments, and corrections.

We give copyright for much less.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Tweaks adjustments and corrections need a reference material. The raw AI image needs to be published first for his tweaks to be copyrightable. Anyone wanting to claim copyright on edits should produce the initial uncopyrightable image too.

but then that makes it not his original work and he shouldn't be putting it in competitions.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The first half isn't relevant under copyright law, you can publish edits to old public domain works without publishing the original, this is extremely common even by museums.

The second point is however completely fair

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

We give copyright for much less.

I find this an interesting point. My understanding is that AI art just isn't considered enough work on the part of the human creator, presumably because of the idea that you only need to come up with a prompt.

But at the same time, most photographs and videos are copyrightable even if you literally just pointed your phone at whatever without any talent at all. IIRC, the idea of photographs being copyrighted was originally a controversial one, but these days is generally accepted. As long as a human took the photo (and not, say, a monkey, as a famous case found).

Is pointing a phone and clicking a button more of a human contribution than coming up with a prompt? What about if they had to iteratively tune the prompt and mask out parts of the image? In my book, I'd say that's more human contribution than many photographs.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (9 children)

The artwork, Théâtre D’opéra Spatial, was created by Matthew Allen and came first in last year's Colorado State Fair.

No. No he didn't create it. He put words into a black box.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

"He didn't create it. He moved a mouse."

"He didn't create it. He put commands into a keyboard."

"He didn't create it. He pressed the camera trigger."

"He didn't create it. He threw store-bought paint at a canvas."

"He didn't create it. He cleaned some dirt off the wall."

"He didn't create it. He was inspired by gods."

Where you see a categorical difference, I see a qualitative one. AI-generated art can be nothing more than putting words into a blackbox, but it can also be a day-long process of tweaking dozens of parameters to get what you want from the words you put into the box. A child can slather paint onto a canvas without much thought - but that doesn't mean great artists drawing complex, intricate paintings isn't art, does it?

Generative AI is a tool. It can do more than most tools, but still, it is something wielded by an artist.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (8 children)

As I'd just written in another reply here, there is a world of difference in describing an illustration and creating an illustration.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I have to say that when I focused on computer-aided graphic design, my instructors who had done that kind of work with material supplies totally felt my work was invalid.

And when I was writing essays in high-school English and getting downgraded for poor penmanship, my teacher refused to let me word-process my work, lest I write a whole essay with the touch of a button.

So yes, creators have had their efforts minimized from the dawn of time, especially as new technology makes output better or easier.

Still, this isn't about the art, it's about the capitalism. If we had a society where no-one had to toil for a meager existence, then artists could do their thing for the sake of creating beauty and not to earn a buck. I believe post-war social programs in the UK drove the Rock-&-Roll revolution in the 1960s (advancements in electric guitars also did some heavy lifting).

So... feed our artists?

load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He did some touch up in photoshop before submitting it.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Yes, US copyright law requires human involvement to grant authorship. AI generated works are not eligible for copyright and it's unlikely to change unless copyright legislation goes through to yet further restrict copyright.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Did you read the article? In this case he put in quite a bit of work to generate and alter the image:

He sent a written explanation to the Copyright Office detailing how much he’d done to manipulate what Midjourney conjured, as well as how much he fiddled with the raw image, using Adobe Photoshop to fix flaws and Gigapixel AI to increase the size and resolution. He specified that creating the painting had required at least 624 text prompts and input revisions.

And he is essentially claiming that the work should be transformative enough to be copyrightable. Even if the original image is not.

That all makes this case more interesting then a lot of others in the past as it is about AI generation with some human input. Not just someone generating vast amounts of work to find something they like (which likely will never be copyrightable). When this goes to the courts will will help to define the line of how much and what type of alterations are required to claim copyright over the works.

Not all AI work is the same, but I am glad that the copyright office is pushing back on these claims. Putting the burden of proof onto the author that they did have enough input into the work. The big open question ATM is how much input is needed and what that input can look like.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

He's lying though. He's pretending the original (wierdly blurry) output was the only AI output, but the details and basically everything else is also AI generated. Nothing is his own skill, brushstroke or even artistic effort/craft, other than prompting the machine-image-generator that he sources the work from.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I only have this article to go on, and it does not suggest that at all. What sources do you have that show he is lying about his input to the artwork?

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Off topic but anyone know if you can download this art in high-res from somewhere?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is an amazing piece, regardless what I think about the AI art shitshow in general.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (6 children)

It's a lovely piece, created by nobody.

It's like how you can look at and appreciate a beautiful cloud or leaf or rock formation which exists in the world without meaningful human expression, but you can't copyright it or otherwise claim to be its creator or exclusive owner.

load more comments (6 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Cool so ai art created from copyright input has no copyright cuz the input isn't considered part of the copyright.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

It goes from the same idea that if you saw someone else's art and made your own art, the copyright of the new art would be yours, and not the one who inspired you.

We've seen edge cases in the music industry (Ray Parker Jr.'s Ghostbusters vs. Huey Lewis and the News' ~~Hip To Be Square~~ I Want a New Drug ) though in most cases in music, artists routinely borrow each other's elements.

The problem is that AI generative art still requires effort from the programmer (the one who prompted the AI) and went through process of telling it what to do, curating the output, running it back through the AI again to add new elements. If that process is sufficiently long, then it warrants copyright. If that process is insufficiently long, then it challenges the copyrightable merits of artists who make quick art.

In my opinion (removed from the whole AI controversy) is that intellectual property law has been long abused, not by artists and creators but by publishers and studio owners who have used their landlord-esque positions to take control of most art, and then extend their IP rights while denying the public a robust public domain.

And they are the ones that are going to ultimately be hurt by the death of IP laws. Artists will still do art, but for the sake of expression, and then it's a matter of the rest of society making sure they're not exhausted by their day-job (which, according to the strikers in Hollywood, they totally are).

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

In my opinion (removed from the whole AI controversy) is that intellectual property law has been long abused, not by artists and creators but by publishers and studio owners who have used their landlord-esque positions to take control of most art, and then extend their IP rights while denying the public a robust public domain.

The idea that a strong public domain is beneficial to all culture has been lost. Now we have huge court cases because two different songs use a similar progression of notes. The point of copyright should be to motivate people to create more art, not prevent people from doing it.

Take the whole Under Pressure/Vanilla Ice fiasco. Nobody listening to "Ice Ice Baby" is going to then say to themselves "great, now I never have to listen to Queen again". They are both very different songs in different genres, that use the same guitar riff.

I understand why selling pirate DVD's should be illegal, for recently made movies that are still under print, but transforming a work should not be infringement.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nothing that judicial, legislative, and regulatory capture can't turn around. Just need enough money and time.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Funny situation indeed. Thoughts:

  1. Copyright is particularly artificial and openly amenable to change to suit the needs of the economy and creators it applies to. So treating this as open ended is probably necessary.
  2. Copyright has for a long time happily provided varying degrees of protection by recognising that one may hold copyright over a work but only over a “thin” or relatively minor aspect of the work.
  3. While there seems to be broader factors involved here regarding the power and market dynamics afforded artists and corporations should AI copyright be protected, there also seems to be plenty of scope to recognise that actual original work can be behind an AI work, however “thin” and distinct from the ordinary categories (eg Music, Literature etc) it may be. Indeed I would question how much the judges involved actually understand this enough.
  4. Does anyone know how this policy is tracking with or affected by policies in whether the AI engines themselves are infringing copyright?
[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

While my thinking is in line with what @[email protected] and @[email protected] have already said, why can't "AI artists" just do what everybody in a profit-seeking situation does and just lie about it? "No your honor, our studies have shown cigarette smoking is not hazardous to your health," "yes, your honor, OxyContin is completely safe," or in this case "yes, your honor, I created this illustration." If your conscience is really bothering you, you could claim it was AI-assisted. I wouldn't think there'd be a "Big Eyes" prove-you-painted-that courtroom case. Am I wrong?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It detectable by actual artists, trained eyes, and probably other ai algos. Prompters have no true artistic skill 80 percent of the time, so they rely on AI to even do the finer details.

There are a few actual artists who use AI in the way scammers do (rather than as a tool to enhance their workflow), but they are rare.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›