this post was submitted on 06 Mar 2025
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I'm gonna need some names because I only recognize like, two.
Going from lawful to chaotic, good to evil, we have:
(until they get a new lead dev, Ladybird is definitely not any type of βGoodβ)
100%, this is either uninformed or some apologia
What's going on? I've seen this new browser engine referenced recently a decent bit but I have no info beyond 'it's new and exists'.
the lead dev is a freeze peach absolutist. he's said some ignorant shit about trans people and when people said "hey, let's adjust this language" he was like "let's not get political"
What exactly has been said?
That's unfortunate :(
Is this really the hill you want to die on and rather have a Chromium monopoly?
the ladybird dev wants to work with people who want me dead. so. yeah, fuck him. mozilla ain't great, but they're the least dangerous engine builders right now. servo would be a better engine for us to rally around, but everyone would rather talk about the less mature, more fascist accepting, project.
nazis are bad. that's the hill i'm willing to die on. this is bigger than a browser engine.
What the fuck? Do you have a source for this?
the whole entire conversation about pronouns was exactly a conversation about this. the request to change to more inclusive pronouns was a request that he make the project more inclusive to people like us, the queer community, who have been getting pushed out of open source ever since brandon eich was named ceo of mozilla. andreas kling's response was that we were being too sensitive and he didn't want to scare of contributors by getting too political. the problem is that in saying that, he's saying he finds one set of contributions and politics acceptable, and another set not.
the same goes for his responses to people asking him to leave twitter. he says he would rather stay on twitter because mastodon is too political. and there it is again. twitter, at the time of the conversation, was already becoming a nazi cesspool that people were leaving en masse, but because his tweets got more engagement there than on mastodon, he stuck with twitter.
i'll gather some links for you after work, but i'm just⦠a little surprised you were familiar enough with the situation to know it happened and not familiar enough to know the context for why it mattered
So just for my understanding:
He refuses to incorporate neo-pronouns, thus Nazi?
no. just to inclusive, non-male specific pronouns. and it was the way he handled himself in the conversation.
Ok understood. Thanks for clarifying. I certainly can not judge without having it read myself, but I respect your opinion.
The impression that I got from Andreas was that he just didn't want the repo being flooded by politics because it ultimately is cruft in that doesn't advance the project technically.
He obviously didn't foresee the harm it would cause to the project by controversy and boycotts, how do you think he would've acted if he had?
I think we're all generally left leaning as people on fedi and tend to get in our echo chambers and think that we're closer to the global centre of political spectrums than we actually are, but I think it's important to understand where the majority of people stand so we don't get out of touch.
You have to remember that over half the voters of the US election voted for Trump. It is true that they're American, but I think we should be trying to understand why they did so rather than screaming at their face every time they deviate from our views of the ideal.
Also, can we stop disparaging the opposition with names? From my point of view the left seemingly calling every Republican a "Nazi" sounds just as stupid as the right calling everyone on the left "woke", and I think this applies to anyone outside this bubble of politics. My belief is that we should be organically introducing that meaning to the name "republican", rather than diluting a historical term.
I personally got very negative vibes from that comment. It takes literally nothing to merge/refuse the PR. Instead, he replied with an extremely charged and hostile statement.
Grammar PRs are common in open-source projects. Ladybird has had fair amount PRs relating to grammar, that have been merged. Are those not "cruft in that doesn't advance the project technically"? What's so specific about this PR?
Also, if a person cannot see the effects of their statement on such a charged topic, then that showcases blatant stupidity and obtuseness.
unrelated to previous content
+1, this is a major issue
Mozilla has existed for over 20 years and Chromium still has a monopoly.
Yes, and thatβs precisely why we need Ladybird, no matter what pronouns it uses for users.
I prioritize basic human decency over browser engine monopolies, but everyone has their own priorities.
The developer literally said heβs not opposed to gender-neutral language, he just didnβt want to accept a random non-technical contribution by somenoe who had never interacted with the project before.
It takes no effort to refuse a PR without making a comment that even the basement dwellers of /r/conservative would have realized would be sensitive and politically charged.
It isn't really important what the developer claims; if they don't act according to their claims, then there's no point. Even I know how to build sandcastles in the air.
Hey, I'm coming from a heavily utilitarian view, so please allow for that in my question.
Let's say there is a pro coder who is amazing at debugging, but is incredibly antisemitic. They have little to no interactions with colleagues and are keeping the hate to the appropriate boards (X, I believe it's called nowadays). Should we contract his work and apply it where applicable?
The issue I have with Ladybird is that the remarks were made *by one of the "lead" developers". In a huge project with thousands of developers, it is inevitable that some of my code is made by a person with unsavory views. However, I dislike the fact that such a person is in charge of the project.
I have no problems with the code itself. Code is code. But it is moreso the leadership of the Ladybird Foundation that bothers me. I'd like for one of the options to come true:
Personally, I'm excited about Servo. Not only due to the leadership, but because it is made Rust. As we all know, Rust has a carcinized logo that gives you the legal right to spam rocket (π) emotes.
There is no "appropriate board" for hate speech, whether it's antisemitism, transphobia, or anything else. If you wouldn't want someone to be a nazi in your office, why would you pay them if you know they're a nazi somewhere else? Is it fine as long as it's someone else's problem?
On another level, if you had to pay a developer, and you have reason to think they might donate the money you give them to an antisemitic cause, or directly use it to fund their own antisemitism, would you still want to give them that money? Or maybe look elsewhere, even if it means getting something slightly worse?
I still feel that if they are doing a good job and not harrassing people at work, they deserve the money. The way you put it makes me feel like I am talking about funding the third reich.
Even if they are chanelling all the funds into an active genocidal army, I stand to argue the problem is not with me paying the developer. There are definitely nuances we can get into, like the 'enabler' character from the 12 steps lore. I am very much not dying on this hill, I might be wrong.
I see the thin line I am dancing on in this argument. Having bigot opinions go unchallenged on large platforms leads to problems.
I wouldn't want to work with someone who can barely wait to kill me and take over the company because of something I was born with as soon he gets the green light from society. But is this what we are talking about?
We can't let the hate take over, but I don't see the solution in cutting off blood circulation to an uncooperating limb. One can argue that nazism is a gangrenous infection, but I personally think it's a symptom of great discontent and a narrow perspective. Maybe I'm just slow to draw the same conclusions everyone else has from the paradox of tolerance.
I'd say that Chromium has a monopoly thanks to Mozilla.
Explain
i think he's referring to mozilla accepting money from google to let google be the default search engine for over 20 years, which 5 years into that deal, google started using any search made through not chrome to pipeline people to chrome
Thank you for commenting Something that isnt incomprehensible. I dont feel I agree with them Saying that's Why google still has a monopoly. I feel the blame largely falls on Mozilla's poor management and lack of doing anything new.
No. Research for yourself or just blame Google and be happy.
Considering I have no fucking idea where to even start with what youre referring to, I think I'll just be happy instead of entertaining an asshole. Blocked.
Yes, basic respect for people is far more important than any web browser
(The engine itself is fine though)
Where does Dillo fit into this?
Its got cookies disabled by default, no support for JavaScript, and only partial support for CSS. Just as god intended.
Same box as Links, I think; or maybe the same box as Servo or Ladybird would fit better...
Huh, I didn't know MSHTML as used in IE was also called Trident. I thought Trident was specifically early Edge before they switched to Blink.
The Edge engine before Blink was called "EdgeHTML".
Usually a Firefox guy but gonna give GNOME web an install for shiggles since I remember safari being fun to play with back in my teenage "hacker" days.
Is there any Servo-based browser? If not, it should be called Serval.
Also a quick cliff notes on what each is would be greatly appreciated
I only recognize the Chromium icon...
These are browser engines, or at least software for rendering HTML but not necessarily the actual browser. I donβt know them all, but top left, Gecko, is the engine for Mozilla, center is Web Kit for Safari, bottom center is Chromium for Chrome, Brave, Edge, etc., and bottom right is Trident, the old engine for Microsoft Internet Explorer.
what's the difference between the engine and the browser itself? is it similar to the Linux kernel vs the Debian user space?
The engine makes it so HTML, CSS, JavaScript etc. are downloaded and turned into pixels you can look at. The browser embeds an engine for that purpose, but then also has a URL bar, tabs, bookmarks, a history feature and so on.
Pretty much.
links2 is middle right: it turns a terminal into a web browser
That's why this post makes no sense. There's no "evil" rendering engine. They should be judged by technical parameters.