this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2023
88 points (88.6% liked)

World News

38979 readers
2200 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

At least 13 people have been killed in a blast outside Gaza City's biggest hospital, the Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says.

BBC Verify has verified graphic videos showing badly injured and possibly dead people lying outside the hospital.

The Israeli military has confirmed it struck an ambulance that it says was being used by Hamas operatives.

It did not say where the air strike took place.

"An IDF aircraft struck an ambulance that was identified by forces as being used by a Hamas terrorist cell in close proximity to their position in the battle zone," it said in a statement.

...

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

You think Israel has been planning this genocide for that long? Interesting take that I'd yet to hear.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Hum… like just see what the far-right Zionist militias in the 20-30s had to say, or what the first prime minister of Israel had to say. Or what they fucking did in 1948? A literal genocide, the Nakba. Like genocide has ALWAYS been their goal.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

The state of Israel was founded as a colonial settler project. If you have never heard this before I'd be shocked to learn you're from anywhere but the US

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean that's not what they're talking about (they're just being a bigot), but this is just an escalation of the genocide that started in 1967.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm not sure that's what he meant. @mwguy could you clarify about Israels multi-decade long commitment to genocide? You're not a bigot either, right MW?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's weird because I read that comment as saying hamas is motivated by its founding desire to eradicate Israel. Everyone else seems to be reading as Israel is motivated to destroy or takeover Palestine. Both are pretty genocidal atm tho. Poor civilians trapped in the middle.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Interesting. I guess we'll have to see what he says!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Tiny Pizza, Has has had a multi-decades long commitment to genocide. My whole life Hamas has been calling for the murder of every Jew on the planet consistently.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Really? How many did they kill?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As many as they've been able too. They went from stonings to gunfights to suicide bombers to rocket artillery to paraglider slave raids in my lifetime.

My whole life I've seen them dedicate more and more firepower to explicitly killing civilians

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm a tad deaf. That's how many people?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

and the number that you wrote please?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

so none? Your saying the rockets have killed none?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

No Mr. Personal Pan Pizza, I'm saying that theyake ~1bn/yr worth of attempted murder and it takes a multi-billion dollar consisten investment in state of the art anti-missle technology to keep those attempted murders from being real murders.

Now if you have tiny little crust and limited toppings options, you might be okay with the intent of an organizations activity to be genocide to the detriment of all of its other responsibilities.

But us more calzone minded folk have folds in our brain. And realize that the intent to do genocide is bad. And taking actions to commit genocide is bad. And furthermore the abandonment of their domestic duties and impoverishment of their own people to accomplish their goal of genocide is generally as indefensible as the purchase of a pizza that can't quench your hunger.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hamas has had genocide in its charter since it's establishment.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Saying they want Israel to stop existing is VERY different from calling for a genocide. And calling for “landback” is very far from genocide…

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh they (Hamas leadership) explicitly have called for genocide separately too. In another place in this thread I linked an article where their spokesman said their goal was to continue to do more Oct 7 attacks until all the Jews were killed.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They never said “until all Jews” are killed.

Palestinians and Hamas can make the distinction between Jewish people and Israel.

Something Israel is incapable of doing. On purpose of course.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm going to ask what I've asked others who have made this "point" have you googled it.

Like this is a pretty basic, fundamental goal of Hamas. It's not even denied by them when asked.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Literally no evidence, just mainstream propaganda and manipulated quotes lmao. Like we really ought to believe articles that come out the Atlantic? Bro try harder.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Click the link. Hamas doesn't deny their desire to kill every Jewish person.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Their leadership when given the opportunity has consistently clarified that they indeed want genocide.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Can you clarify what they said then?

I can say confidently that I’ve seen plenty of Israeli leaders saying they clearly want to either kill or expel all Arabs and non-Jews from Israel.

I’ve never seen the same from Hamas leadership (and even less from other Palestinian groups - like Fatah and PFLP) that what they want is to either kill or expel all Jews from Palestine…

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’ve never seen the same from Hamas leadership (and even less from other Palestinian groups - like Fatah and PFLP) that what they want is to either kill or expel all Jews from Palestine…

Have you looked?

This is from just three days ago :

Ghazi Hamad, a member of Hamas's political bureau, praised the brutal attack the group carried out in Israel on October 7 and said if given the opportunity, they would carry out similar assaults repeatedly in the future with the goal of eliminating Israel, The Times of Israel reported.

And they've said similar shit my entire life.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Eliminating Israel == calling for a genocide.

Israel is an apartheid fascist state. It should be dismantled. And a new secular state with equal rights for all should be made in its place.

That is the position of most Palestinians. Some even wish for a two state solution, for some reason.

But saying Israel shouldn’t exist is not genocidal, anti-semitic or anything. It’s just fucking human.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Eliminating Israel == calling for a genocide.

Did you read the articles on it? Are you aware of what happened on Oct 7? Advocating for the repeated indiscriminate killing, raping and enslavement of civilians is calling for a genocide.

I don't think we have the same definitions of genocide if mass murder and rape isn't part of yours.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Rape and enslavement? Bro that is PURE propaganda juice.

And the Palestinians are saying “until we are free we will keep fighting”.

WHAT THE FUCK WOULD YOU EXPECT? A colonized people will keep fighting, forever.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Rape and enslavement? Bro that is PURE propaganda juice.

On 10/7 they not only raped multiple women, but they paraded raped bodies through the streets of Gaza to cheers.

And they have hostages. Those hostages aren't being paid. They're being enslaved.

And the Palestinians are saying “until we are free we will keep fighting”.

Gazans are free and have been since 2004.

WHAT THE FUCK WOULD YOU EXPECT? A colonized people will keep fighting, forever.

There are zero colonies in Gaza. I'd expect this sort of violence out of the West Bank which is actively being colonized. But not the strip. The violence out of the strip largely justified the colonization efforts in the West Bank in the West and is the #1 reason the US doesn't push for an end to West Bank colonization.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Hostages don’t work..? Why would they be paid? They are just held for ransom. Are you dumb?

THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL IS A SETTLER COLONY BUILT ON TOP OF PALESTINE.

The Nakba destroyed the villages and cities of, and displaced over 70% of Palestinians to fund the state of Israel. The land Israel is built on is literally stolen from NATIVE Palestinians.

That is the definition of settler colonialism. A bunch of Europeans went to a land, murdered and forcibly expelled the natives to build an ethnostate.

Gaza is a concentration camp. The West Bank is a bantustan.

HOW CAN YOU DEFENT ISRAEL?????

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Hostages don’t work…? Why would they be paid? They are just held for ransom. Are you dumb?

Yes because they're currently being enslaved. Just because that makes Hamas look bad doesn't make it untrue.

The Nakba destroyed the villages and cities of, and displaced over 70% of Palestinians to fund the state of Israel. The land Israel is built on is literally stolen from NATIVE Palestinians.

Nakba happened in 1948. If it was 1960 we'd have an argument (there was a war in the 60s). But several generations of people have grown up with this reality now. And since then the state has absorbed millions of refugees from the rest of the Middle East and North Africa which expelled and displaced Jews from their societies. From Iran alone as an example, Israel accepted nearly 150,000 refugees forced out.

So ya Nakba was bad, but so was the Trail of Tears or Wounded Knee or any of the millions of atrocities humans have committed. Most societies are built on land stolen from Native populations. The atrocities of yesterday can't justify the atrocities of today because everyone has an atrocity they can point to.

HOW CAN YOU DEFENT ISRAEL???

Easy. They're not the ones conducting slave raids and parading raped women and girls through their streets to cheers. They didn't kill 40 children (beheading admittedly only some). They pushed for a return to the 1967 borders going so far as to evict all settlers from Gaza as a "prove it" deal for peace. They've shown a willingness to trade land for peace as evidenced by the Sinai deal, sending the peninsula back to Egypt.

And Gaza has proportionally received aid from the west (adjusted for inflation) at about 6x the Marshall Plan, which more than pays for the land stolen. The Gaza strip should be the Singapore of the Middle East but they've squandered the aid they've been given attempting to implement endless warfare.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's an interesting question, because normally forcibly evicting an entire nationality would be genocide. But is it genocide if it's evicting the colonizers? What if it's been 50 years? A hundred?

I'm not sure one way or another, it's just interesting to think about.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

But is it genocide if it's evicting the colonizers? What if it's been 50 years? A hundred?

Yes. To all of them yes.

Like if it was 1946, there's be no question that supporting the partition plan Britian was working on would be a bad idea.

But to call for the return of the land to Israeli would be the equivalent of calling for the return of the Dakotas to the Lakota in 1960/70s (during the AIM movement). Or calling for the eviction of all whites from Oklahoma in the 1970/80s.

That's about the same 70-80 year timeframe from "original sin" to today that we have going on in the West Bank.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That is indeed tricky.

But I don’t think WE can find the solution. Only the people who suffered the injustice of colonialism can say what is “enough justice”. Only they know what would help mend the wounds.

(Of course there are some extremist violent minorities in the resistance, but most Palestinians would agree they just want a land and freedom).

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The original reason for a Jewish state, before it got corrupted by extremism, was to live in peace and be respected, instead of constantly persecuted and killed. That may have been true in the 1800s, but I'm not sure if it still is. It certainly doesn't seem like it's enough to really stop it. That original reason is also a bit ironic considering what most Palestinians want.

Perhaps the best solution would be to form a unified state with a secular government that fiercely protected the ethnicities living in the country. That I think would displace the fewest people.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No ethnostate can exist with peace. Jewish people are safer in the US than in Israel. And that was also true after WW2.

Creating a COLONIAL settler apartheid state where a bunch of people already lived? That is fucking dumb.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Typical British colonial thinking, I agree. The ethnostate made sense at the time it was first discussed. This was Russian revolution era, so the European states were each effectively ethnostates.