this post was submitted on 03 Dec 2024
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Even Mint you have to jump through hoops to not have to put in your password every time there's updates. Hoops that are too complex for a newbie on their own.
Most Linux users don't want to admit that a huge thing that makes people hate Linux is having to type in their password every time there's updates (and there's always updates.)
It's seemingly such a small thing, and as Linux users, we know the why behind it so we don't question it, but the average user doesn't and they hate typing their password over and over to get into the computer, let alone to update it.
To them, Windows is easier since the updates happen silently in the background, and aren't in the forefront because Linux expects you to know what the fuck you're doing.
Every Linux box that I didn't fuck with to make sure updates happened silently in the background that I gave to anyone else would always be wildly out of date the next time I touched it because they just... don't install updates instead of typing in their password.
Often, they've forgotten the fucking password, if you've made it so they don't have to put a password in when they log in (my mother has done this one countless times).
Until we figure out a way to make Linux secure and straightforward for end-users, people will stick with Windows.
I've heard people claim Mint is easy enough for non technical users (grandma, etc.), but I think that's with the caveat that they will have someone to support the machine.
Yeah, nobody's paying me so I don't have the time or effort to be everyone's tech support for Linux. If they can't figure out how to type in their password to install updates, it means most people are way too fuck stupid to handle Linux. No offense, but I mean really. If Linux still needs me to manage their system for them, it's by definition NOT friendly to the non-computer-savvy.
I've gotta be like one of the few Linux users who still sees it as too much for the average user, mostly because average users are fucking whiny crybabies who hate learning anything new ever. See also Bluesky vs. Mastodon.
That's fair. I maintain a Fedora installation for my elderly mother, whose Windows laptop is on its last legs. I revitalized a 15 year old desktop with Fedora for her, installed everything she needed (browser, file manager, libreoffice, iscan, brother printer drivers, password manager, zoom meetings, etc.). But yeah, every month I hop on, open up a terminal and run
sudo dnf upgrade, and every 6 months run the Fedora major version update.Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed my Mom has been able to get all her business done using Fedora, but I definitely am acting sysadmin should anything in the slightest go wrong or confuse her. That said, I think she could run the upgrades if I left her with extensive notes (but if anything went wrong, she'd lose her shit, ngl).
I don't know, I think a Linux distribution with automatic updates would be a good thing if you could ensure every user would be guaranteed to not be greeted with any issues upon reboot from said update.
But yeah, sadly, even on the most user friendly of distros, you still have to have a decent familiarity with the command line , and have the patience and knowledge of where to look for, and then read and comprehend, the documentation. And I doubt there will ever be a time in the future where 100% of users are comfortable with all that, though imho if you use any computer at all, you should at least try.
I think this is, for most people I've spoken with (including coders in games, my kids, etc) the major issue -- they don't want to have to use the command line for things. It's fine if you can, but that alone is a massive wall for some people. People are exhausted right now, and having to learn a variety of command line prompts instead of just clicking on icons is too much for some people. That can be argued till you're red in the face, but I think a major reason so many people bounce off linux, myself included, is that it's not 'as easy as windows.' We need to stop telling people it is, because that means they won't try again later.
I definitely hear you on that, and in some ways, it's a shame more people don't have the option to learn more about how their computer works.
The Linux OS is, in my experience, one of the most amazing things I've ever taken the time to learn. In my pursuit of not only learning programming and computer science fundamentals, but also the internals of the Linux operating system, I've gained a granular control over my computing devices that has allowed me to be spared the onslaught of forced "AI in everything" that has recently been pushed down people's throats. I also have minimal exposure to invasive advertisements, and other unwanted features.
But the cost for access to said knowledge was an immense amount of time studying, an equivalent amount of patience, and a strong desire to learn difficult subjects. That's a cost the majority of users are unable or unwilling to pay. They simply dont have the time and/or desire, and that's just reality.
Ultimately, I don't think it's acknowledged enough that it requires a vast amount of privilege to have the time and energy to devote to such endeavors such as learning how Linux, the command line, and Computer Systems more broadly, work. I think this is because to acknowledge such would open the discussion up to the more broader topics of the qualities of our education systems and our cultivation of more positively reinforced learning models, which is a much more difficult topic to navigate and argue about when contrasted with the "It's easy to install Linux. Windows bad, so just do it." argument that pervades the discussion space.
This is an incredibly thoughtful and well said point, thank you for making it. It's important to remember to empathize with users because we didn't all start in the same place, or have the same time or money, and so on. The comments about the privilege to have time and energy to learn it are spot on.
So again, thank you :)
You don't have to use the command line at all.
Here's step four of Mint's installation guide:
Then we get this:
You know Windows is exactly the same right?
Nice try, though. I'll let you have one more go.
Windows is just too difficult for normies to use. All that command line stuff, PowerShell, registry stuff.
Cool whataboutism; I was told 'you never need the command line' and then the installation instructions for Mint have you using the command line. Plus you regularly need it in Linux, and you don't in Windows. That's the point.
Do you actually think, sigh, 'normies' use the command line, powershell, or registry in Windows? The whole point is you can use it but don't have to. On linux you're forced to use it at times.
You don't need it, though. Who actually verifies the md5sum of their ISO?
Can you install without doing it? Yes. Therefore it's not needed.
Needed: necessary. A requirement to perform a duty.
Completely untrue. I have to use PowerShell and the registry quite frequently (at least every month or two). I don't have to use the terminal in Linux. Ever.
You are just making shit up.
Sigh yes, sigh they sigh do sigh, because sigh shit sigh breaks sigh and sigh you sigh need sigh to sigh go sigh there sigh to sigh fix sigh it.
Sigh.
Why do you keep making shit up? I've not used it on my PC for years. I don't even have it installed. That's how unnecessary it is.
Where's this "force"?
Why are you lying so much? Were you never taught to never lie?
I'm just going to assume this is a bot at this point.
Sigh. Can't retort so you just claim someone is a bot. A poor tactic, usually employed by the... er... academically challenged.
You keep lying. Lying is bad. Don't be a liar.
You can go now. Alt-tab back to the PowerShell windows users constantly have to use.
Honestly this sounds like it'd be so far in the future that it's not even realistic to contemplate right now. We're clearly not even close to this being the reality.
Sadly, I'm in very much agreement with you on this. I love the Linux OS to death, but I'm very very much into learning as much as I can about computers right now, and I am not representative of the majority of computer users.
I understand now why updates are required, why they sometimes break things, and ultimately what has to be done either by myself or, usually, others, to fix them.
But most people seem to go absolute ape shit when things don't work as expected, and I think that has to do more with human societies not cultivating enough patient, non-stressed, curious, people. And that's what bums me out more than this whole Windows vs Linux thing..
You're not alone, I've been screaming into the void about this for a long time too. People keep saying "Linux is user friendly enough these days for even non techy people" and I'm sorry but it's totally not.
I think most Linux users just don't realize how technologically illiterate most people are. Most people can barely use a browser and send emails. They absolutely don't want to mess with anything related to "updates" that they have no idea wtf is doing to their system anyway.
I guess people who say that think of the average non techy user as someone like me: I don't really know how this works under the hood, but I do troubleshoot my own stuff, am willing and able to search for help and apply advice on my own, try different things, and hopefully realize when that advice starts to sound fishy.
The thing is, that's not the average non-techy user. That's already "dabbling in tech".
The average non techy user is Homer going "oh, a talking moose on the Internet wants my credit card number? Sounds fair."
Yea, definitely. Also just the fact that you're here says a lot. I don't think you can find many (if any) of these "normal" users on the fediverse.
That's my beef. Most of the time I don't have the time to reverse engineer my volume knob drivers via the command line, let alone figure out which obscurly-named (but generally under 8 characters) random function or shell script or what have you is the fix, but oh you gotta install the repository, but first you gotta find out which one is compatible with your kernel, and then do it all again cause you forgot to type sudo and your password at every goddamn step
The same is true for windows though. I have to help my dad with some minor thing at least once a month.
Hell, people get mad about having to hit a 'Cool, do that button', let alone something like a password. It's how we ended up with UAC v2, because people were steaming pissed about having to accept when a badly written app was doing something stupid that they just changed the scope of 'stupid' to be much less restrictive.
In fact it's even bled over to OS X, as people are SO mad about entering passwords they're angry at Apple over it, too.
Basically, any time a UI hops in front of you and goes 'Wait! This is important!' people get annoyed, and well, all OSes are moving towards more of that shit rather than less, as if they didn't know that was annoying or something. Glad I don't work in UX or I'd probably lose my mind at how much stupid hostile shit is being added constantly.
It honestly baffles me how this keeps being a thing. Not just for OSs but for a lot of websites too. And the wild thing is that most of the time, it's not even that important and the user does not and should not care about it.
on top of which it creates a security issue too:
by teaching users to always instantly click on "OK", "Accept", etc, they stop reading the actually important messages, because they're being bombarded by so, so many useless pop-ups everywhere...
Indeed.
It's to the point that even legitimate sites look like those dark-pattern fake scam ecommerce sites with all the popups, fake "deals", and timers and shit.
Windows of course feels much the same way - recently replaced a failed mac with a new Mini and holy crap is MacOS so fucking zen.
I logged into my apple account and then was assaulted by... fucking nothing. No ads, no popups, no upsells, no candy crush, no enabling AI shit. I just landed on the desktop to do whatever the hell it was I was going to be doing.
Macs also make you put your password in all the time for updates, installs, etc. Laymen seem to use macs just fine
The second my father asks me about this is when I revoke his computer privileges.
That's... by design. Nothing can change your computer until you decide to approve it. As you said, you can change that setting but it's not an oversight. Many of Windows' historic security vulnerabilities were because they gave every user admin rights and didn't prompt for changes. It's also how many users were unknowingly upgraded to Windows 11 without wanting it...
Absolutely, and it's very good design.
But people can fuck right off with this "Linux can be used by everybody" shit, because apparently remembering to type in a password is too god damned confusing for most.