this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2024
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Just change King to also say man.
So a trans person saying that he is a man, is not a real man? Or more adapted to context, a trans person saying that he wants to feel like a man, is not a real man? and doesn't deserve to feel like a man?
I don't agree with that at all. Weird thing to upvote tbh.
Edit: Today I learned, when I advocate for trans rights, I get up votes. When I apply the same support to cis men, I get down voted.
I thought this is a supportive space in terms of gender identity. I guess I was wrong. I will continue to support trans people for the same reasons, I support everyone. Human rights.
I'd say it's rather that a trans person shouldn't prove anything to anyone, same as cis. If they feel the need to prove, that's likely because of influence of toxic gender standards
Well I don't know where you read the proving part. it is about feeling like a gender, not proving that you are. If you want to change topics, sure, we can talk about a different topic. Do you like Chinese food?
Yes, I do. I also do think that you were also reading what wasn't in the thread starter's post
It is the logical conclusion of comment. Trans men are men. Unless you want to argue that they aren't. Or that the men in the comments were implied to be cis men and then want to argue that cis and trans people should be treated differently to each other and therefore a trans man have every right to want to feel like a man but a cis man doesn't.
No, why?
Yes. And to be men the don't need to say that. Visibility is another thing, and in that regard one might argue that they need, but I think that increasing trans visibility is not the same as 'I am man' statements
Edit:
To this I would also say 'No', but I'm starting to guess, we have a very different views on what it is to 'feel like a man'
Okay the post talks about "needing to feel like a man". (I am ignoring The comment on the picture because that is not what my issue is. My issue is the general statement in the post of the "aunt" in the picture and The comment section here) The comment is a reaction gifs and I think you agree that maybe you shouldn't take reaction gifs 100% literally without any adaption to the context. Here the context is men FEELING manly. So I think it is fair to understand it as "if you have to say that you want to feel manly, you aren't"
In that context, you can't remove looking like a man, or maybe doing stereotypical man stuff, or anything that makes that person feel manly. The questions are, of course, what the fuck do you need to feel manly? What causes you to say that? What are you requiring?
All Women need to submit to you? Well that is completely unreasonable and you are an idiot. Not wanting to have your living room painted in pink, rather reasonable.
I heavily reject the notion that you or me get to decide what makes someone feel manly. If it is something that would require something from someone else, Of course, there are reasonable requests and unreasonable requests. And you can reject to fulfill them, you can even mock them if you want, but they aren't less of a man for wanting to feel like one and painting that desire with a broad brush like in aunt's post is also pretty bad (and probably sexist)
Maybe we have a different view on what it is to feel like a man. But if that is the case, then tell me, why are we judging men for expressing that they want to feel like a man without asking them what the fuck they mean? Because we would mean different things, so why wouldn't they mean something else than you or me?
I think you're reading into this too hard. We all know OP posted that image of GOT to refer to the overtly masculine, typically right wing extremist, men. Who make everything they think and do be gendered in the way they think screams, "I am a manly man." Which in itself probably stems from daddy issues. I genuinely dont think they were referring to trans people at all.
Yeah I am not only talking about trans people though. Cis men can struggle with their masculinity too. And I would give you the "they mean the toxic men with crazy requirements to others" but when we claim that we are about making people feel comfortable and included, which at least I do. Then we need to ask ourselves if there is inclusive language that you should use, is there exclusive language that we shouldn't use. What is exclusive language? And the answer is e.g. saying that a man that struggles with manliness is not a man. Sure, the suffering of trans men are worse than e.g. a cis man that doesn't feel manly, but we shouldn't play the victim Olympics but support each other in our struggles. And a blanket statement that ridiculous men who want to feel manly, is just toxic language. Generalization is the issue. I am firmly in support of people who struggle with gender or ethnicity or anything similar. We are brothers and sisters and I don't like them bullied. I want them comfortable.
If you would be upset over someone making fun of a trans man's struggle of feeling like man, maybe don't make fun of a cis man.
If you aren't upset over someone making fun of a trans man's struggle of feeling like a man, you are an asshole.
I think I've read it differently and this was the source of misunderstanding. I understood it as you should do what you feel like doing and not saying others that it's a manly thing to do.
Absolutely agree.
This, I think is the same misunderstanding of mine, I didn't understand that as expressing the fair desire to feel like a man, but as demanding confirmation from others.
Regarding the inclusion, I think you're right and I am just too toxic myself and too pessimistic. I agree that it would be better to create an inclusive environment and try to support everyone and maybe even fix the toxic masculinity in some. This is a complicated task but a worthy one
I see your perspective and we share the opinion that you should do what you want (with the usual limitations)
I don't read it as that in this case because the post in the picture is hostile. The comment provides an example of something that is bad but the initial message by a different author is already hostile. The "aunt" clearly express the dismissal that I have the issue with and the reaction gif is ridiculing men.
Why would I read it as "be yourself❤️" if the content is dismissing your personal experience/feelings and even identity from the get-go? ( Rhetorical question) I feel like I am clearly being told to read it as a hostile message.
The reason you're getting downvoted is because you seem to be missing the point of the meme and then are getting argumentative.
What is the point of the meme? How is it not ridiculing/dismissing the desire of a man to feel manly? Something that rightfully usually finds support here for trans man.
Because it's not ridiculing someone for feeling manly, it's ridiculing the kind of person that goes around stating they're manly as fuck all the time, going out of their way to show how manly they are and generally making "manliness" their entire personality.
Where does it say that?
The post in the picture, just completely dismiss any possibility other than a man wanting to feel superior.
That is the starting point, that is what I am talking about.
The comment in the picture provides us with a story and context but it is not the same story or context because it is a different user sharing their experience. I have no issue with that.
The reaction gif is implying that you aren't a man if you express that you want to feel like one.
Where does it say that you say it says? Where does it state that it is about making it your entire personality? Where does it say, it is about people who want to show how manly they? Where does it state that they don't like a man stating that they are so manly? It seems to be about the opposite. A man who struggles with feeling manly. Where does it state that it is something the person does all the time?
Some of these are inconsequential in some scenarios but all of them highlight how much you read in there that just is not present to justify toxic language and behavior.
Doesn't say that anywhere on the gif
You are correct, technically it doesn't. It is about kings, and the poster tells you to replace king with man.
Also technically it is saying that a trans person who tells you that they are a man, is not a real man. I mean trans men are men.
But I don't think that is a fair reading of the text. But sure you can read the message that I call toxic, as a toxic message to men in general and especially towards trans men. I just don't see where you want to go with that.
Alternatively, and admittedly, I am reading it in the context of the post in which it is about men expressing that they want to feel manly. Still toxic, and implicitly transphobic, but at least matching the post.
Okay, so why are you allowed to infer things that aren't in the meme but I'm not?
What are you infering? On what ground?
There is a difference between infering and assuming.
On the grounds it's a fairly common turn of phrase applied to many things and commonly understood to mean if you have to make a big deal of saying something you're not that thing. Something similar to "actions speak louder than words"
I don't agree that it is a common phrase but I will give you that. So what is it saying in the context of the post without being completely besides the point?
I mean I think you would agree with me, if I would say that, saying "you aren't a good person if you have to say it" would be off-topic as a response to someone who would say that when they hear that someone wants to feel like they are a good person, they think they are a bad person. I am changing the context to highlight why I think it would be completely besides the point. In that case, I think you would be right to take it literally and accept it as a off-topic response. But if it would be a reaction gif, you probably should ask yourself if it is wise to read it literally as an off-topic response or adapt it a little to fit the topic.
Now back to the real thing, The literal reading is toxic, and e.g. transphobic because it says that coming out makes you not a man. The little adaption that I think would be a valid way to match it in the context, is to change "says" to "says that they want to feel like". Maybe it seems big but I honestly think it is an adaptation required for most reaction gifs or meme templates. But as it is still toxic and transphobic, I am not too interested in arguing whether or not I am wrong to read it like that instead of literally.
Now you are saying that it is a common phrase that says that if you make a big deal out of being something, you aren't that. That sounds like the literal reading of it. So we are back at off-topic toxic, and e.g. transphobic statement. Because guess what being trans and coming out and transitioning seems like making a big deal out of it. I think it is a big deal and they have very right to do so. I hope their experience is pleasant. At this point, it seems like you think they shouldn't and that doing so makes them not a real e.g. man. I don't think you think that but to me, your argument seems to point there. Would you be motivated to tell me how that is not the logical conclusion?
Why is it you're allowed to infer things the meme doesn't say but I'm not?
What am I infer that it doesn't say? I am willing to give that point up if you can make your case.
This place can be supportive of trans rights and also downvote bad logic and arguments.
Trans men don't "want to feel like a man". They are trans specifically because they already feel like a man.
In addition, your comment was a total non sequitur. We were talking about the fragile egos of certain cis men, and you brought up trans men. And did so in a way that makes you look like you're trying to be offended.
You seem like a good person. Please keep up the fight, but pick your battles a little more wisely.
A trans man feels like a man but before at least social transition, they probably don't feel like a man, in the sense that we have been talking about it. Which is why they transition.
It is ridiculous to read this and misunderstand what kind of "feeling like a man" we have been talking about.
I am Talking about trans men because 1. They are men. We talked about men. 2. It is bs, to act like you understand why a trans man wants to social transition but give shit to any (apparently cis) men when they want to have their gender affirmed.
Yes there are toxic men who expect ridiculous things from other people to feel affirmed, and often they are toxic. But this whole conversation is generalizations over generalization to toxic stereotypes. I am highlighting how much bs that is. Fucking treat people as individuals. If they want to meet their boys for a beer and discussing how the process of their different projects is going and what they might be able to do, to feel "manly", then why do you have to be toxic to them? How does that make them insecure? Is my mother insecure when she goes to a girls night?
People should fucking chill and if they want to judge people, be precise. Could you imagine how much the "immigrants are bad" folks would suffer if they had to be precise and explain to the class how their coworker is a good person and hard worker while being an immigrant, but all immigrants are lazy and criminal.
I am sick of the left copying right wing rhetoric. People are individuals and most of them are pretty cool.
So Where was my logic bad? Did we talk about fragile egos? No. We talked about a vague notion of men (not only cis) wanting to feel manly.