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Volodymyr Zelenskyy urges allies to stop just ‘watching’ amid North Korea threat
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2024
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It is highly unlikely North Korea will cross the Ukrainian border. Putin can let them do defense while Russians do the offense. As we have learned in the middle east, defending and enabling war criminals does not equate being complicit in their war. Don't ask me how that works.
So having western troops in Ukraine should also be fine if they stop at the russian border right?
We don’t want that
Who's "we"? Sounds like a proportionate response to me.
I wouldnt be presumptious enough to say we, but I would really prefer the war not escalate further. Im all in for ukraine, and definitely fuck east-ukraine, but I don't want American troops deployed in ukraine outside of advisory and training positions. I dont have great jusitifcations as to why, politics are hard, but I don't feel its the US' job to directly police the rest of the world, so Id prefer us to not directly combat other countries unless they've directly attacked us.
History certainly has a role to play here, which sucks because its always been my worst subject, but an eye for an eye seems to be at odds with peace which is obviously ideal. That is why I said my justifications arent great. It doesnt help that I do support foreign benevolent intervention, but not directly through force. And, as always, defining 'benevolent' in terms of an authoritarian regime engaging in foreign intervention of any kind is... difficult.
Edit: i forgot to mention: what we should be doing is allowing ukraine use of any non-warcrime western version of any weapon that east-ukraine is confirmed to use against them. We should also be quietly investing massive amounts of cyber resources into disabling russias nuclear launch systems and crippling putins stranglehold on their government by fucking with his finances specifically.
As the phrase goes, Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war).
Russia doesn't care that you want peace. They don't care how nice you are. They care if they're going to lose. Putin wants power, and if he is going to lose that power he'll stop this war. There are many ways to do this, but I'm not opposed to NATO troops helping out. If Russia brings in foreign troops, that's more than enough justification for NATO to get more directly involved too.
We won't have peace by asking nicely. We'll have peace by ensuring an end to the invasion. If Russia wins then they'll continue. Ukraine winning is the only outcome that can bring peace.
The issue is that a direct war with russia would lead to the next world war guaranteed. It may not be nuclear, but it likely will. Even if it wasnt, an invasion of russia would be possibly the most difficult, drawn out, and costly war the US has ever faced.
I don't think so. I believe Russia would say that, but I don't think that is accurate. China likely wouldn't back them up because they'd have nothing to gain. They'd rather try to gain influence over whoever takes over after Putin.
I agree with you on preferring the US sending support to Ukraine in the form of equipment and strategic guidance instead of troops at this stage. European countries have a different balance of considerations due to their proximity to Russia, and I trust them to make the right choice on the level of support to provide.
This will start ww3.
Sorry but Ukraine is not my problem, no matter how the military industrial complex tries to push the narrative.
The rise of ductators who want to seize other countries' territories is your problem, and the sooner it's stopped, the better it is.
When will it become your problem? I think you're a US citizen so probably for you Lisbon (in Portugal, extreme West of Europe) could have Russian troops in it and you still wouldn't care, right?
Well, thinking this way has proven to be so wrong because sooner or later you will be the next in line.
"Czechoslovakia is not my problem" vibes. How did that end up?
Everyone tries to find some historical parallels.
There aren't any, completely different times and different situation.
It wouldn't start ww3, Russia is a joke power, they'd fold faster than superman on laundry day.
They are not serious people.
I think they absolutely will.
And Biden as well believes that and repeatedly said that he believes that.
All the red lines were talked over in private prior to 2022.
BTW, ww3?
We are literally infinitely more powerful than the worthless pieces of shit, and they will just keep needling us and trying to provoke responses elsewhere until we finally turn and stomp their balls in.
This is how they work 'escalate to deescalate', because they believe everyone else is weak, only they are truly strong, so everyone will always back down.
The nazis were exactly the same. We are still shamed for waiting as long as we did to do what was right.
We need to teach them a lesson in a language they understand. Pain and terror.
When was the last time the west won a war?
When's the last time Russia did?
We won both world wars.
China, otoh lost to Vietnam.
But I'm sure Russia is so confident, they should attack, let's see how this goes, should be quick.
We won because we were allied with Russia.
Now we can’t be poor farmers in decades long wars. And you think the west is gonna be able to beat a superpower? You think that rabid nationalism is gonna protect you from nuclear arms?
I'm sorry, what?
I wasn't planning on us going to war with China...
What do you mean "superpower"?
Because Russia is a fraction of the USSR, the smart and functional (read: less vodka-soaked) bits of which were ukraine, you know the ones who invented their nuclear and weapons technology and the reason why the T-14 and Su-57 haven't been used in combat, and why the Sarmat exploded on the pad.
Russia is just a rump state waiting to have its siberian half taken by China, either by force or by corruption.
On one hand, I really hope this is a government astroturfer, because I don’t want to believe someone is this ignorant. On the other hand, it would be really sad if someone is actually getting paid to post something so low effort and obviously whacko.
It's not nationalism.
Russia needs to be destroyed as a state.
I'm not saying we're the best or anything, I'm saying Russia is a threat to peace, so let's finish them now and move on.
They're this joke we just always laugh off and ignore, but why? They'll just keep biting our heels until we finally solve them once and for all.
In what way is Russia a threat to peace?
The moment they remove all troops from Ukraine and Crimea, we can talk about how they're a threat to peace.
Until then, they have to burn.
We’re not gonna talk about everything that happened since the Maiden Coup? The US controlled puppet government of far-right Nazis? The genocide of ethnic Russians for years in east Ukraine? The far-right government allowing establishment of NATO troops & missile deployments along the Russian border for years? The dictatorship reigning over Ukraine, which has banned rival parties, rival media, and refuses to hold elections?
Ukraine has made it perfectly clear, on many occasions, as have all Russia's neighbors, that they hate Russia, and want to see every Russian die horribly.
The fact that they've been fighting like thay have for 3 years should be a hint. The fact that the first thing to happen after the invasion was nato adding more members should be another hint.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves?wprov=sfla1
We can have peace any time Russia wants, they just have to go back to their shitty country.
You are repeating propaganda lines from bygone days.
US can't even build a hypersonic missile, after Iran, north korea China and Russia have already possessing them for years.
Our nukes are obsolete and so far US just started arsenal update. It's gonna take a lot of time, years.
Also - US capitalists sold out it's manufacturing to China, so what are u gonna do when China sanctions you? New genius capitalist idea - move manufacturing to India hahhahahhaha. Can't make this shit up. Build up India too.
Just remember - Biden knows the real situation, and he's sitting tight and not making too much noise.
Oh dude, oh dude.
You have no idea.
We need to go to war, we absolutely need to go to war.
You think we're as broken and pathetic as Russia is? Really?
We need to make an example.
They said they'd use nukes if Russian territory was violated.
They're Russians, all talk, no balls.
And I would never send troops.
But we should send bombers and erase any ground forces like we were having fun, they're a joke country and 50 years behind us, they cannot stop us.
End the war now, don't let it drag on, that is the larger risk.
If the sentiment is that they won't you'd better just sucker punch them. I mean, the whole world wasn't expecting Russia to invade, especially at the time they decided. If they're in Russia they're fair game imo. It's war, don't offer concessions, if you can kill them in their sleep you just do it and you're glad it wasn't you first. Nightly drones now, or air raid sirens all night later, such is life
The US warned repeatedly that Russia was going to invade.
I'm pretty sure they also thought he'd get spanked relatively quickly, and backpeddle within like a year after he lost enough war criminals and starving peasants who participated in his "special military operation".
And it's still going.
We really would be foolish at this point to make any more "It's unlikely that..." assertions at this point... It's all out crazy town now.
They already have, with the enormous amount of weapons and ammunition they’ve been supplying to Russia. And they’re about to cross it again because North Korean soldiers are going to fight for Russia.