632
We'll have a long memory as things get worse for working class Americans, minorities and women
(lemmy.world)
this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2024
632 points (73.9% liked)
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"Or else" isn't bullshit when it comes from the perspective of anyone who actually has something to lose if Trump wins.
Everyone who is on the fence or doesn't feel like they need to vote are just speaking from positions of privilege because they don't personally have as much on the line. I just find it hard to sympathize with that perspective.
then pressure Kamala to change that one far far right wing policy the progressives cant live with and lets win this thing.
But the same thing can be said for the people ignoring the faults of Kamala...
Especially when they're just begging for an end of genocide, or fracking destroying their communities, or any other of multitude issues where Kamala and Trump have the same policies even though the majority of the Dem voting base disagrees with them.
It seems odd to act like the "high road" is the one where genocide is ok, when we could just have someone who was anti-genocide...
There's fall less people willing to hold their noses to vote for genocide and fracking than the other way around. And very few people who are only voting for Kamala because her border, genocide, and fracking policies are the same as Trump's.
The people that want that are still voting trump, if they told you that it would change your mind....
I hate to break it to you, but they lie about this shit all the time so even if they lose they win.
No one is ignoring her faults. She is just less flawed then the alternative. People need to learn how to vote. It is literally the only zero sum game that matters.
I'm sorry, how does Trump improve any of the issues you describe?
He doesn't, neither does Kamala...
So why get mad at someone who's line isnt the same place as yours?
You can tell at them to throw their morals out the window, or unite with them and demand just a little more than the bare minimum you would accept
Why is no one allowed to ask for anything more than your bare minimum? And why would you risk trump to not help get more?
I don't logically understand your position, I understand what it is, just not why it's your position.
Can you elaborate on how this:
Isn't applicable to you wanting people to ignore genocide? In some cases where it's literally their close family over there as the victims?
Then why even have this argument?
How about we swing this double edged sword the other way? Why try to alienate women who lost their rights with the overturning of Roe v. Wade because of Trump's supreme court appointments? Or what about every LGBTQ+ person in the US who is trapped at the edge of their seats because members of the supreme court have stated they'd like to revisit Obergefell v. Hodges, too?
How about all of the kids who are shot to death at school because of unchecked gun proliferation that Trump's party has blocked attempts to regulate? Or people who are drowning to death in medical and student debt that Trump blocked attempts to solve, while he just has a "concept of a plan" that no one is able to describe?
Or maybe we can look at his previous presidency, when his hateful rhetoric caused sharp rises in hate speech and crimes committed against people of color and the socially vulnerable? The rise in white supremacist/domestic terrorist groups? The election denialism that resulted in January 6? The complete and utter failure to properly manage the Covid-19 pandemic that led to the preventable deaths of millions?
The threat of fascism literally looming over our heads and being told none of that matters because Kamala is no different from Trump in my specific hand-picked list of issues, that's what I take issue with.
If someone is not willing to do the bare minimum to keep him out of power because they don't see a reason to vote for Kamala, I have a long list of less-kind words I'd love to say if I didn't believe in trying to maintain civility online.
Because if instead of spending time and effort trying to convince voters to lower their morals...
We'd be better off uniting to hold Kamala to a higher standard, because then we'd stop trump, and get more of what we want.
I'm not sure what's confusing about this.
Goodness you are a speed reader, replying within 2 minutes and acknowledging the very first sentence I wrote.
I am literally holding Kamala to a higher standard. Everything I wrote is the standard that anyone with half a braincell and respect for their fellow man should understand. Anyone who does not is not worth being pandered to.
That's literally the opposite of what you did and that last reply was just insults....
Have fun acting like that, if you're wondering why more and more people stop replying, it's because they're blocking you because of how you behave.
You'll forgive me for being a bit passionate when trying to justify the fact that I deserve to be alive when people are trying to buy and sell my rights during each election cycle, and I am tired of having this debate over and over again with bad-faith actors.
Sorry but I'm gonna be really passionate now: USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN FOR FUCK'S SAKE!
The simplest easiest way for you to "remain alive" as you claim to care for (frankly I bet it's bullshit, but lets proceed under the assumption you have failed to analyse the subject from a strategical viewpoint rather than that you're a disgusting tribalist liar) is for Kamala to change her position, not for millions of people to change theirs and this goes double next election because voting Kamala now "because Trump" isn't going to solve the problem for the next election since it's yet another "just this time" that doesn't change people's opinion of the Democrats nor does it challange their politics and hence doesn't change the trend, but the Democrat leadership pivoting away from their trend of getting closer to Fascism (so far only abroad) has long term implications (that will save many lives, probably including yours if your claim is genuine, in the next decade or two) unless they pivot again.
So you should be fighting like crazy for the Democrat leadership to change their stand, and should have been doing it for 6 months already, unlike being an useful idiot like the ones who were defending Biden 6 months ago with exactly the same arguments as you use now, so he felt secure enough in power to send 2000lb bombs to Israel (which the US Military refuses to use because of their massive collateral damage) which Israel used on residential areas in Gaza and Lebanon killing thousands of civilians, so now these people (which might include you if you too were defending Biden like this back then) have the blood of hundreds of children on their hands.
No matter how you cut it the Moral standpoint of "I will not support the enablers of the mass murder of children" is always far above the one of "I don't want to risk my own life" - even the most disgusting of sociopaths cares about their own life.
So stop preaching the supporting of the enblers of mass murder because "poor me" from the top of that bloody pile of children's bones which at best you've naivelly confused with a moral high horse and at worst knowingly sat on top of whilst supporting your tribe like the worst kind of sociopath.
You don't get to dictate the circumstances of my life, or that of anyone else's, to fit your narrative. Doubt me all you want but I am not some crisis actor seeking pity points, and I am incredibly disappointed this is the state that we immediately take when treating with other people.
I wholeheartedly condemn genocide. That is why I am advocating to keep the one person who could somehow make the system worse out of office. This is me using my brain like a pragmatic, rational person, as you kindly recommended.
Yes, I would love it for Democratic leadership to change their stances. I vote in that direction when I am able. Emphasis on when I am able, as that is just not up for vote right now and expecting that situation to completely change in just a few weeks is either naive or disingenuous. The other option is that some unthinkable atrocity worse than anything we could imagine today occurs and tips the scale of public opinion overnight, but that is not an alternative I would prefer, to say the least.
As I have stated a few times in this thread, none of that invalidates the other issues which are also very much at risk of being decided by this election. Even if neither viable candidate is planning to do anything about the atrocities currently being committed by Israel, that doesn't mean the choices are completely equivalent to others who, in addition to being concerned about the situation in the Middle East, are also concerned about their own survival at home.
It must be nice to just have one problem to worry about.
Man you really skipped the whole "think strategically" core of my argument and went for accusing me of "dictating" to others, which exactly what you've been doing all this time telling others how to vote.
Are you sure you aren't a Trumpist? Because "one rule for thee another for me" is exactly how Trumpists think.
As for the rest you're just repeating what you've been told by the very people who want you to submit to their wishes and for you to push others to submit to their wishes: there's a pretty basic rule in the world of IT Security (and security in general) which is when the people who tell you "this is who I am" and "this is how things are" are the very same who then go "do this for me", you cannot trust a single word of what they told you about anything until independent proof because the entire picture you've made in your mind informing you if you should of not "do it for them" was fed to you by them hence might be a scam.
So when a politician tells you "this is how things are, this is the kind of person I am, give me power and money, there are no other options", you should throw the whole thing away (treat it as non-info until backed up by independent sources, which is not the same as treating as a falsehood) and try to build from the ground up your own picture of the situation and your options and then compare it with what they say, all with a lot of skepticism.
Having done exactly that very exercise with regards to what the Democrats say, I quickly discovered that there are in fact other options and that the easiest and most likely to succeed in Stopping Trump is not the one they're telling you "this is your only option", it's the one were the Democrat leadership moves towards the wishes of the electorate.
The natural followup question is then "Why do they refuse to do what's the easiest and most likely to succeed thing to do?" from where the most logical conclusion is that they have objectives which they have not told us about which they deem more important than Stop Trump.
If they don't care all that much about Stopping Trump and as you say Trump is a danger for the life of people like you, then they don't care about your life.
At that point add in that their refusal to budge is to do with them wanting to continue to enable a Genocide which is turning into a new Holocaust, and at the very least one must conclude that these people are not only acting with profound bad faith, they also do not have the kind of aversion to being an enabler of the mass murder of children which a normal human being who is not a sociopath has.
This conclusion about their character is consistent with them not really caring about the life of people like you, hence why Stopping Trump is for them secondary to other undisclosed objectives of theirs, hence why they're not actually pursuing the option with the highest chance of safely Stopping Trump.
They're shameless liars and sociopaths. Doesn't it remind you of the morals of a certain carrot-colored populist?
The way I see it, you can't actually be sure that the Democrats are less dangerous to you and others than the Republicans. Sure, they have a different style of deceit (more hypocrite and less overt than the Republicans), which is really just a different kind of salesmanship and means nothing in terms of their morals and what they'll actually do, and whilst they seem restrained by the need to appeal to a less hard-right electorate, the more they get away with not appealing to it and still getting power the less restrained they will be by that need and, guess what, that's exactly the Future you are helping build.
In summary: my point is not that you shouldn't be voting in the way your heart decides, all things considered - absolutely it's a though choice and as an European I'm privileged in this situation that I can stand by my Morals and be all Logical and Analytical about it with no fear. My point is that one thing is to make your own mind for yourself another is to be part of the swindle of people who are clearly sociopaths of the worst kind, who care for human just as little as Trump and whose only constraint on the evil of their actions is the fear of losing the part of their electorate who are not hard-right, mindless tribalists or useful idiots, and, guess what: what you're doing is actively removing that fear of theirs, or in other words, taking away the one factor that stops them from acting in the most sociopathic ways.
I'm sorry but the only way for the top Democrat politicians not being a massive danger for Americans and the rest of the World, is for them to be terrified of losing so much of the leftwing vote that they'll not be getting any of the power and money they so covet for decades.
The best possible outcome would be for them to barely make it by a minuscule margin, ideally requiring various vote recounts before they're confirmed to have won and for most APAIC-supported Democrat congressmen to lose their seats and a deadlocked Congress. Even then, given that the Hilary Clinton debacle has taught nothing to the Democrat leadership, this might just ever so slightly slow down the increase in their sociopathy of their actions.
People acting as you do aren't helping that - the more they smell the naked fear of people like you the more they are confident they can do whatever the fuck they want no matter how evil and get away with it.
Don't lie to us, you live for this shit.
If you were truly tired of it you would go touch grass instead of focusing on how to be the biggest contrarian in the thread.
I agree with your first sentence, but honestly your second sentence doesn't matter. No one has the right or ethical high ground to command or threaten another person to vote the way they want, regardless of whether they sympathize with that person's position.
Actual Trump voters, many of whom are voting against their own best interests as well as yours and mine, have the right to make their uninformed/hateful/self-harming/selfish (pick one or more as applicable) vote, and so do folks whose vote we disagree with for other reasons.
We all think our reasons for voting the way we are (including abstaining) are valid, and at the level of the voting booth it seems to me that we have to respect everyone else's as valid even when we don't feel they are.
If we do not do so, I don't see how that doesn't lead to either:
a) commanding another to vote as you desire
or
b) thought policing people
I find either of those to be unacceptable for any purpose.
My perspective is that no one has the right to infringe on the rights of others, and to me any act that facilitates Trump entering the white house creates a greater infringement on human rights than any vote that facilitates Harris.
These are things that shouldn't even need to be decided by an election, they should just be codified and not up for vote at all, but here we are.
Persuade all you want.
Threatening/intimidating/commanding people to vote in a particular way is not OK though. It's not something where the end justifies the means, and it's a pandora's box that should not be opened. OP would be rightly called a threat if a conservative version of it was posted. It's akin to this, minus the power dynamic.
And when I am being threatened myself by their stance?
Hey if you are convinced by the two-wrongs-make-a-right approach, that's your business not mine.
Stovetop, no one comes here to hear your annoying yappy petulance, and you havent changed a single persons mind, just annoyed everyone who reads this thread. You are the reason the block user button exists.
Then block me instead of whining about it.
It's actually sad that you would talk about privilege. That may apply to some people. What if for example your cousin is living in Palestine? What then? What privilege do you have? If you vote for Harris, you're guaranteed more of the same.
The privilege that you have is that you don't have family members dying from policies that Harris endorses. And I think Trump would be even worse, so there's a practical argument that people should vote for Harris anyway, but that's a tough sell if it's your immediate family or your best friends who are in the literal crosshairs.
I'm just sorry to say, but the situation in Palestine is not up for vote right now. This election will not change that outcome, short of keeping the "finish the job" candidate out of office while maybe the more reasonable of the two can eventually decide to do the right thing.
If none of the "other stuff" that is actually up for vote matters to people, though, then those people aren't allies and apparently don't care if they end up living under a christofascist regime that won't need elections anymore.
I disagree. I think each voter is going to choose what the relevant issues are and then they're going to vote. You can try to tell us what issues matter, but people are going to make up their own mind.
Also, it's quite obvious that who becomes the next president does have an impact on what happens in Palestine.
NEVER AGAIN 🤡
I guess some people's issues are more important than [others]
On the farm all animals are equal! But Palestinian get taken to the shed to make this equality work ;)
Which candidate will make life for Palestinians better?
They are getting genocide either way ...
Weird way to call that "better"