this post was submitted on 20 Sep 2024
351 points (90.9% liked)
linuxmemes
21355 readers
1428 users here now
Hint: :q!
Sister communities:
Community rules (click to expand)
1. Follow the site-wide rules
- Instance-wide TOS: https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/
- Lemmy code of conduct: https://join-lemmy.org/docs/code_of_conduct.html
2. Be civil
- Understand the difference between a joke and an insult.
- Do not harrass or attack members of the community for any reason.
- Leave remarks of "peasantry" to the PCMR community. If you dislike an OS/service/application, attack the thing you dislike, not the individuals who use it. Some people may not have a choice.
- Bigotry will not be tolerated.
- These rules are somewhat loosened when the subject is a public figure. Still, do not attack their person or incite harrassment.
3. Post Linux-related content
- Including Unix and BSD.
- Non-Linux content is acceptable as long as it makes a reference to Linux. For example, the poorly made mockery of
sudoin Windows. - No porn. Even if you watch it on a Linux machine.
4. No recent reposts
- Everybody uses Arch btw, can't quit Vim, and wants to interject for a moment. You can stop now.
Please report posts and comments that break these rules!
Important: never execute code or follow advice that you don't understand or can't verify, especially here. The word of the day is credibility. This is a meme community -- even the most helpful comments might just be shitposts that can damage your system. Be aware, be smart, don't fork-bomb your computer.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
People using Linux should take their heads out of their asses sometimes and just let people enjoy things they way they prefer.
Fuckin preach it friend!
That's the joy of Linux, the "have it your way" approach to an OS
yeah well, you can't have it your way on Ubuntu when Canonical FORCES you to use snaps (heck they even hacked apt to prefer snaps instead of debs)
You're still missing the point.
and what point would that be? That you can't have it your way, actually?
No, that some people's way involves using snap, and that's fine.
These are two incredibly persistent pieces of misinformation...
If you were running a previous version of Ubuntu, where you had deb packages which worked, over the course of a few updates, they replaced half of your programs with snaps (without telling you), which were unable to see additional hard drives, USB pens, printers, scanners or cameras, couldn't use plug-ins, couldn't use 3rd party templates or presets, and didn't respect any system settings for fonts/text size, icon placement and so on.
Snaps were fine for "aisleriot solitaire" or "calculator" (assuming you didn't mind a 5 minute loading time) or other things which didn't need to interact with any file or system or device, but for actual programs for people trying to do work? Bag of shite.
Now, I imagine some years later they must have fixed some of this rubbish, and I read recently they might have finally done something about permissions, but no, they didn't ask anyone before they swapped working programs for completely broken snaps. They forced it on their existing users, and some of us bear grudges.
You don't need to lie. A full list of debs that have been transitioned to snaps is:
Sorry, I might have misremembered the exact process (this was probably three or four years ago), though no need for the nasty aggressive attitude (though my apologies if I offended you somehow).
Maybe it was version upgrades (e.g 18.04 to 20.04) instead of updates, or clean installs/new installs/reinstalls? I expect it was some of one and some of another.
At the time I used to (casually) maintain a bunch of Ubuntu computers for a few community projects, small organisations and older people who live nearby. I don't remember the specifics, I just remember the phone calls of "the printer isn't working" "Linux has broken my USB pen" etc, and the fix being "remove the snap version and install the deb version". It caused a lot of problems.
If that is true, then why are deb packages provided by Canonical for Ubuntu dummied out?
Canonical FORCES you to use snaps, there is no other way to look at this.
They do not prevent you from adding repos and installing from those. They don't even try to make it slightly more difficult to do so than it was before. Microsoft force you to use edge. Cannot really disable it. Can't remove it. Can't simply switch away from it. See the difference?
I haven't kept up with Edge Shenanigans since I no longer use Windows, but the last time I used it I had no issues using Firefox instead of Edge.
Yeah sure you can add repositories to replace Canonical Sources to evade those dummied out packages, but you really really shouldn't need to do that in the first place.
So the only difference is: MS enforcement is more stringent than Canonical, but they both force their respective ways onto the user (which may or may not versed enough to actually add/remove apt repositories).
you can install firefox, but even if you click 'make firefox my default browser', it won't. It will open the settings, wait a second and then show you another button. Clicking that will do what you wanted - for web links. Pdf files? Html files? Searches from the start menu? Still all open edge.
On ubuntu it takes maybe a minute to remove the firefox snap, add the mozilla repo and install from there. Those dummie packages are more for convenience than anything nefarious. I agree that snaps have been made unavoidable if you're not paying attention, but I disagree that it's a bad thing. Ubuntu is migrating from .debs to snaps, so it makes sense that those become ever more prominant.
Oh so that's still a thing that you need to set every file extensions and protocol separately to the other browser. Yeah that is stupid.
And it only takes a minute on Ubuntu if you Know what you are doing. The regular user probably only see that their applications are slow to start and need to search the internet why, if they care at all.
And why is that? Because Canonical doesn't tell you that you installed a snap, Microsoft is "honest" enough and tells you that they are shitty and want you to use Edge.
They technically do tell you, even in the graphical software store. And the speed difference between snaps and debs has been largely nullified by now.
Canonical provides transitional packages for packages that they've decided to provide as snaps. They're not forcing anyone to use snaps, they're saying "if you want the default we provide you, we're providing you with a snap." KDE Neon (my current distro, which is downstream of Ubuntu) has decided that they want to use the deb packages from packages.mozilla.org, so they provide an override. If you want to use the deb from packages.mozilla.org, you could grab KDE Neon's repository deb and install that, or just set up the mozilla repository and use the same pin file they already have.
This is like saying "Debian FORCES you to use libav" Debian moved from ffmpeg to libav for a while. No, they provided libav and made transitional packages for this drop-in replacement. Some people didn't like that and made their own ffmpeg repos, and the process for using their separate ffmpeg rather than Debian's transitional packages was the same as the process for using Firefox from a different repository. (I was one of the people used some third-party ffmpeg repositories, and I was glad when they switched back to ffmpeg and provided libav to ffmpeg transitional packages.)
Does the fact that the Ubuntu repositories don't contain Keysmith mean "Ubuntu PROHIBITS you from using Keysmith?"
Uhm... and why does the user have to transition to snaps? Why does Canonical provide those transitional packages while there are perfectly valid debs for the same thing? Certainly not because they have a vested interest in forcing it right?
you instantly refute yourself, kudos!
They don't. But Canonical will no longer be providing debs in primary Ubuntu repositories, so those transitional packages exist so that users don't wind up with an abandoned, old version of Firefox.
For the same reason neither Ubuntu nor Debian provide debs for Google Chrome, despite Google having an official apt repository? Those debs exist in somebody else's apt repository. If you want to add that apt repository, you're welcome to. But those external packages aren't part of the system they provide.
Your unwillingness to accept what I'm saying doesn't make what I'm saying contradictory.
so they are forcing the users to adopt snaps.
If I were giving you €50/month, and then one day I decided to give you USD$55 instead, am I "forcing" you to accept US currency? No, I'm choosing to give you something I don't have to give you in the first place in a different form. You can always reject my offer. You can ask someone else to give you €50/month.
They're choosing how they want to provide Firefox. If anyone else wants to provide Firefox differently, Canonical isn't stopping them. In fact, Canonical literally hosts and does the builds for an unofficial Firefox repo with their free Launchpad service.
Distributions decide what they want to package and how to package it all the time. Pretty much every time, someone is upset. But that upset is generally based on an unreasonable sense of entitlement.
Yes, you are literally forcing me to accept your dollarinos, which, unless I exchange them MYSELF, are USELESS!
You provided me, until an arbitrary cutoff day, always the negotiated currency (deb package) but then you, out of the blue, decide to change it to your currency (snap package).
If Canonical want to do their own package, why don´t they just make a new branch and ditch Debian all together? I am not aware of ANY downstream distribution to ditch their upstream's package format, except Ubuntu. Well and those that lie underneath Ubuntu and ditch snap for the super upstream's (debian) package format.
so either suck it up to Canonical, or go to another distribution provider? Thats your solution to your not perceived enforcement of snap?
Hold on, have I fallen for Poe's law?
That's your pejorative to believe that, yet I am quite sincere when it comes to the fact that Canonical forces Snap on Ubuntu Users when debs were totally fine as other Debian derivatives use them with no issues.
And as you can see on other comments I'm not alone with that stance.
Being in the majority doesn't necessarily make one right, as shown by [insert election result you disagree with here]. But if you actually are serious about that, you do realise how entitled it sounds to demand that someone do free work for you in the particular way you want it done?
And I believe you mean prerogative.
Canonical is a for profit company though.
And yeah I always mix up those two words, so thanks.
And they're providing Ubuntu for free. If you were a paying customer and the contract you'd signed with them said they'd provide Firefox as a deb, that would be a different situation.
Sorry but I have to say this, that we are not coming to an agreement and are far off by miles. So let's just rest this comment thread for good. What do you say?
Heck yeah! There's so much gatekeeping and tribalism that it kinda sucks out the joy a little bit