this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2024

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Men losing their mind (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 3 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[+] [email protected] -8 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Expectations of women of men: basic human decency, don't rape

Expectations of men of women: be completely subservient in every way

atro_city: "these are the same picture"

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago

There is no way you're actually dumb enough to think those are representative of what the expectation norms are for either sex.

So stop being disingenuous.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Hmmm.

I'd phrase it differently. Unrealistic expectations of the opposite sex [^1] exist by both sexes, but that there outcomes for women when the stereotypes of men hold true are often more dangerous. One is saying it isn't sexist; the other is saying that there's a vast difference in risk. This becomes one of those tautological arguments where women can't be sexist because sexism is redefined to mean "it can only be sexist if it's men doing it."

The "Would you rather a bear or..." question could be reused in a very uncomfortable way. You could swap men with a group of yoing, black, inner city men and rural white men for women. But instead of demonstrating that men are the issue and women the victims, suddenly it'd be black men who are the victims and rural white men the problem. And, yet, the fear and the risk of confirmation of stereotypes is the same - only in this case, believing those stereotypes makes people racist.

These sorts of tautologies - only whites can be racist, only men can be sexist - is sloppy, lazy, and dangerous, because it prevents introspection and always externalizes blame. I'm not saying that you are arguing a tautology, but that's the essence of this thread: minimizing sexism against men in the basis that it can't be sexism if rape isn't involved. Which is exactly how this thread went, isn't it?

I want to reiterate that I agree that there's a false equivalency; consequences for women can be higher. My argument is that it doesn't make it not sexism to broadly brush all men with a demeaning funny little tweet.

Also: there should be a Godwin's Law for rape. The conversation was about household stereotypes. That was a bit of a leap.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Also: there should be a Godwin's Law for rape. The conversation was about household stereotypes. That was a bit of a leap.

I'll leave this here.

Across their lifetime, 1 in 3 women, around 736 million, are subjected to physical or sexual violence by an intimate partner or sexual violence from a non-partner – a number that has remained largely unchanged over the past decade.

https://www.who.int/news/item/09-03-2021-devastatingly-pervasive-1-in-3-women-globally-experience-violence

In the US it's 1 in 6 women (and 1 und 33 men).

https://rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

And last but bit least:

Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

https://www.humboldt.edu/supporting-survivors/educational-resources/statistics

So no, jumping to rape is not a leap. The fear of sexual violence is part of beeing a women. I don't know a single women that wasn't in a situation that did or did almost resulted in sexual violence.

It's not part of beeing a men. I have never in my life feared about sexual violence and I share that with the vast majority of men.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

In the US it's 1 in 6 women (and 1 und 33 men).

I'm surprised it's dropped. The statistic used to be 1 in 4.

So no, jumping to rape is not a leap

Yeah, it is. The conversation was about gender roles, until you brought in rape.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Yeah, it is. The conversation was about gender roles, until you brought in rape.

Was it tough?

I'd phrase it differently. Unrealistic expectations of the opposite sex [^1] exist by both sexes, but that there outcomes for women when the stereotypes of men hold true are often more dangerous. One is saying it isn't sexist; the other is saying that there's a vast difference in risk.

Then rape isn't part of the risk you were talking about here?

The "Would you rather a bear or..." question could be reused in a very uncomfortable way. You could swap men with a group of yoing, black, inner city men and rural white men for women. But instead of demonstrating that men are the issue and women the victims, suddenly it'd be black men who are the victims and rural white men the problem. And, yet, the fear and the risk of confirmation of stereotypes is the same - only in this case, believing those stereotypes makes people racist.

Fear of rape, among others. Which I wanted to show is backed by the data.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

lesser pain vs worse pain doesn't mean that lesser pain is inexistent

[–] [email protected] -1 points 3 months ago

Yes, those are the only expectations all men and women have /s