this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
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[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

But you and I did NOT. I see a lot of people online who can't make the distinction.

EDIT: Thanks for replies, all. Some good conversation here

[–] [email protected] 55 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Of course I’m gonna assume good faith from you here, but I feel like some people boil down issues like this to “well I mean I didn’t do it so stop complaining”, and that’s wildly reductive and irresponsible at minimum.

Arguing the situation in this way sidesteps the uncomfortable and inconvenient reality that the United States is yet still occupying native land, whether it be Hawai’i, Alaska, or the contiguous territories. Yes it’s entirely possible that mine or your ancestors didn’t perpetuate these things as immigration is and has always been ongoing, but the point everyone misses is that we are still here.

I couldn’t possibly imagine belittling natives for acknowledging the fact that their land was taken from them by force. Some real colonialist shit.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I feel you, and also acknowledge it is a hairy subject on a grand scale.

I also try to frame the issue in the actual, real moment. I try my damndest to do as little harm as humanly possible to anyone. Should I be forced to give money to someone affected? Land? Should I be punished?

Who benefits? A grandson of someone displaced? A great great grandson? Whole family trees? How do you make shit like this right after so much time?

Mostly, I'm trying to encourage thought and discussion. Fundamentally, I think people should be judged on their own merits and actions, not their lineage.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That will always be an issue until the US government actually has real communication and cooperation with native people.

I don’t necessarily think that citizens of occupied land are automatically responsible for the past actions of a government (not to say that’s what you implied), but said government that committed the atrocities is. As far as the other part of the equation, I suppose the beneficiaries should be determined by the natives themselves.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The way I understand it is that even if we omit any ancestral blame for what happened, the Native Americans are still dealing with the impact while European descendants benefit from it. It's kind of like if I went to school with a very bright kid that was horribly abused and kicked out into the streets, so they performed poorly and dropped out, allowing me to get into the best college possible and have a great career. Why should I have any compassion for this kid if I didn't abuse them myself? Why would I help them get housed and into college? Why would I even acknowledge that they were abused and forced out of their home? I'm one that earned it by working hard to get into college and graduate.

This omits the possibility that this kid might have outperformed me and taken the college spot, leaving me to be in a worse off situation.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Not 1000% on board with your analogy, but I understand and fully agree lol.

I just wish most people had the empathy and mental capacity to understand the intricacies of this stuff. It’s a hell of a lot easier to just say “uH wOw I ain’t payin reparations for no dang indians” than it is to actually think for a minute about and acknowledge the real history of where you live

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How far back in time are we going to enact justice? My 36x Great uncle Olaf never got his comeuppance (/s a little)

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

As far back as required to make those involved feel as if they were compensated. If you feel that 36x Great uncle Olaf's loss affects your Family Today, then you should have your day in Court to make the case. However, as most likely 36x Great uncle Olaf was in fact not involved in anything in a currently oppressed People's past, it'll be a hard case to make.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The outcome needs to be negotiated and yes, the Tax Payer should foot the bill for the redress for the actions of the State and individual wealthy Families should foot the bill for the crimes their wealth stems from. For example: the entirety of Oklahoma's rather impressively inhumane treatment of the Native Tribes needs to be dealt with as the People that profited from the malfeasance are still holding the proceeds of those crimes.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Doesn't the pioneer woman's family own the land involved in Killers of the Flower Moon? Pretty wild stuff

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Yes. As well as all the oil money pumped out of OK over the Years.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What about the tribes that lost wars to other tribes? Do they get their old land? How far back are we going?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Irrelevant, only considering land taken by settlers

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Why is only one relevant? Is it the brutality of the war that matters? Or the recency?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

It's the control. If one Native tribe still controlled the ancestral grounds of another tribe, then you probably would have some people calling that out... but they don't. The US government has ALL the control, every tribe within US territory, and all of their land, is at the governments mercy.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No reason to not give you the benefit of the doubt, but you’re giving off heavy “they were already killing each other so it’s no big deal” vibes. No insult intended, just what I’m picking up.

Intertribal conflict is the tribes’ business, colonizing and displacing is colonists’ business. To be clear, external invasion is the concern here

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nope not that at all. I'm against all war is all. And many people in many countries all around the world are benefiting from awful wars that happened centuries before they were born, possibly from people they aren't even descended from. To call me and anyone else who moved to the US afterwards "colonists" is imo a misrepresentation and unfair. And I'm not saying the native Americans don't deserve more than they're been given so far.

My point is more getting people thinking about how tribes that early Americans wronged were also wronged before that. If we fix things to return them to how it was, why does the final state of tribes before European arrival get chosen as the correct state? We likely have no idea who was on specific land first here in America. We just know the final state and some of the preceding wars before then. Keep going back and there's always a new victim.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Entirely valid, all great points - and to clarify, specifically colonialism from the colonists that colonized the land, no pejorative usage against anyone here

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

we are still here

Yes, people don't leave occupied land. It's never happened historically and certainly won't happen now, that's the point of occupation. People can acknowledge what happened but in practical terms thinking that somehow all native land will be returned is just naive.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Oh well of course, at this point in time it’s been made extremely clear that natives will be getting absolutely no land back, even unoccupied land in the plains for example. There’s no major figures in government even remotely speaking on this stuff in a substantial way, so it may as well never happen. Fucked up stuff on top of all the other fucked up stuff.

And also to be fair, implying that most anyone here believes that all land should be returned is pretty naive in and of itself - there are absolutely more options than ALL OF THE LAND and NONE OF THE LAND

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (10 children)

So by that logic, the Turks should give Constantinople back to the Romans?

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (10 children)

That doesn't mean everyone living on stolen land gets a pass just because they weren't the ones to steal it. They have an obligation to make it right.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (3 children)

How do you propose this be done? FAIRLY?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I know, this might sound crazy, but: Listening to the native Americans?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Land shouldn't be owned indefinitely and passed through families. It's not right to have created a dynasty based on one guy in the 1800s claiming everything in sight and having his idiot descendents be wealthy simply based on the fact. They didn't do anything except inherent land.

Land that isn't your primary home should have to be leased and not owned, that way it's being used most effectively and not privatized for the sole benefit of the owner. It leads to land speculation and squatting of land that someone else would like to use.

Additionally, natural resources should also belong to the people and companies should have to pay fair compensation for their extraction.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah but that isn't what everyone is saying. They are saying give it all back to the native Americans and what? Move back to Europe?

Israel is more muddy people have been taking that land from eachother for millenia. Just because after the 2nd world war Israel was re-created after being stamped out prior to that. Who was the aggressor and the victim back then.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

TBH, I don't see what's do great about Israel anyway. It just looks like a hot desert area with rocks everywhere.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

My town just voted to give some land back to native American descendants by buying it from the current owners.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Define "make it right". And for who, exactly?

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

If you steal someone's TV and give it to your kid, does that mean the person who it was stolen from shouldn't get it back? Its the kid's now???

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