muddi

I'm reading the Kathasaritsagara now! Reading those kind of collections of tales makes me feel like I'm living among the ancient/medieval villagers of India, an interesting perspective shift to say the least

Honestly I see it in actual historians too. Texts always have something along the lines of "yes, the [insert non-European civilization] had _, but only Europeans went far enough to _"

Shit like how ancient civilizations had invented calculus, calculated pi to several digits, observed the cosmos, etc. but it's only the ancient Greeks who contributed to history apparently. Seems unprofessional as hell. It's not that dissimilar to white supremacists who say " everyone practiced slavery, but only Europeans abolished it"

It's often linked to some geographic or cultural uniqueness of Europe, like how they didn't have famines or shit and so they were able to be creative about nature that wasn't chaotic and devastating.

No, their metaphor was not ignorant at all.

I was half-joking, but yes it was ignorant? Lesbians don't choose their sexuality, but people do choose to be vegan. There is an ignorance of sexuality and diet there. Also, people do try going vegan, eat some fake meat and cheese, and eventually go back to eating meat because they still crave meat in itself. This does happen. This is also related to those people who sneak in or revert to eating meat because of some cultural or family tradition, or peer pressure from friends. One vegan I knew who was going on for 25 years ate a steak to impress his business friends instead of speaking up to say he didn't want to eat at a meat-only restaurant. Take a look at my other comments here, I am speaking about this topic at the social level, not how individuals like the taste of meat or fake meat.

there is nothing wrong with it at all

Yeah I know, I have been saying that. This is not a moral argument. This is a rational one, and one perhaps from a medical or public health perspective: the cultural desire to obtain "meat" as a thing in itself is the cause for the demand of meat or meat alternatives. It's great that under capitalism that solutions can be provided via the market and supply-and-demand, whatever, but it doesn't address the reason why there is a demand in the first place.

How I know it's a cultivated desire: it doesn't exist across cultures. Hell it doesn't exist within the western fake meat market itself: how much fake seafood do you see engineered out there? Or exotic meats ie objects perfectly engineered to mimic dog, cat, or even human meat? I'm sure human taste buds can enjoy long pork, real or fake. Yet basically no one is asking for this right?

Hence this meme

Yeah, if they were Indian. The culture around meat is different than in the West eg. some people only eat meat on a certain day or weekend. Even then, the approach is that meat is disgusting and needs to be cooked and spiced thoroughly before consuming anyhow. And there is already a long and popular tradition of simple alternatives to meat dishes like using potatoes or paneer (or "soy paneer" aka tofu to make it vegan)

Again, my point is that it is not about the individual but the social ingraining and pressure around meat as a category in itself for individuals

Okay but we aren't there yet and the vegans who I know who have broken their mental attachment to this meat "culture" have not even been tempted to go back once compared to those others

I get it but this is an emotional appeal. I'm just trying to explain the logic of what was being said here

I like the fake meat stuff too, and often try to make it myself even though I've never had meat on purpose in my life and actually throw up if I do accidentally. I just like the kitchen chemistry aspect of it I guess

I'm not saying we should stop making vegan alternatives to meat. I'm saying people should stop desiring meat or meat alternatives. Because logically that desire of meat is the cause of both meat and meat alternatives. Like how the cure to nicotine addiction isn't nicotine patches alone

Good job but not everyone has the mental fortitude you have displayed. I know plenty of people who tried going vegan, ate the fake meat and egg stuff, and just went back to the real stuff for the taste

Anyways it's not about the individual level, it's more the social ie the social ingraining to have the form and experience of meat contributes to the "culture" and demand of meat

The problem is that you're still fixated on the form and experience of meat. A full mindset change is more robust.

It's like how fake leather can help replace and reduce real leather usage, but if the trend of desiring leather died out in the first place, the whole problem is dropped altogether

That is not at all what this is like, completely ignorant metaphor

Imagine someone addicted to eating their poop. Perhaps they are reforming their ways, and for some time they take half measures like eating smelly chili. Eventually they realize their unhealthy fixation isn't really overcome by this, so they move onto food that doesn't resemble poop, like a salad maybe

I know we are currently in the ___ phase but where is the line drawn? Does this ___ justify genocide? Im not inclined to believe so.

The line is genocide, if nothing else. The blanks don't matter. Your position on genocide should be 110% against it, the extra 10% (ideally more) being proactive measures to fight fascism to ensure genocide never happens again in history.

An atmosphere helps though