this post was submitted on 07 Apr 2024
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I am not an atheist, I genuinely believe that God exists and he is evil, like a toddler who fries little ants with a lens.

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[–] [email protected] 163 points 7 months ago (3 children)
[–] [email protected] 77 points 7 months ago

"Dystheism (from Ancient Greek: δυσ-, romanized: dus-, lit. 'bad' and θεός theos "god") is the belief that a god is not wholly good and can even be considered evil, or one and the same with Satan."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism

[–] [email protected] 35 points 7 months ago

Also noteworthy is misotheism. Seems OP counts as both.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 7 months ago

Dystheism

TIL

[–] [email protected] 104 points 7 months ago (8 children)

I've always said (jokingly since I'm an atheist) that Christians got it mixed up and thought Satan was God, so they've really been worshiping Satan all this time. They don't want to admit they're wrong about him being good, so they make up all kinds of excuses for all the horrible things he does. That's why they were totally conditioned and ready to do the same with trump.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Just a gentle reminder that there are very many more Christians in the world that aren't American and certainly don't support Trump. Or even care that much about American politics.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 7 months ago (2 children)

LOL there aren't people in the rest of the world. America is everything and everything is America. If you don't agree will bring "Freedom" to you.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 7 months ago (1 children)

No, Satan is just a being created by God who realized how fucked up God is.

Of course, the issue with God is that its presence equates power with morality, which makes people think Trump is a moral man.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago

the issue with God is that its presence equates power with morality

I can't agree with this enough. My sister, a Christian, even agrees. Things are "good" and "bad" because god says they are, and for no other reason. And god is the highest good simply because he said that he is. The reason he gets to make those rules is that he's the most powerful.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago

The Christian god is just a spurned lover who wrote in their diary about how stupid and mean their ex is and they should never have dumped him.

Satan is the dumper and has moved on long ago.

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[–] [email protected] 65 points 7 months ago (2 children)

the term i always heard was maltheism. reading the other comments though, i'm surprised how many other terms there are for this.

fun fact: renowned mathematician Paul Erdős referred to God as the SF, or Supreme Fascist, who kept all the best mathematical proofs to himself.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Hmm. Does God know the largest prime? Does God know the last digit of pi?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

The premises of the questions are wrong, hence they do not speak to the knowledge of anyone but yourself unfortunately. There are no last element in an infinite chain, because that is contradictory to the fact that they are infinite. Even questions such as the barber's paradox, that are not logical fallacies, do not imply the nonexistence of god.

Mathematically speaking, everyone knows the last digit in Pi due to there not being one. We call this concept that something is vacuously true. Similarly a nonsense statement such as "all ants on the moon eat people for breakfast" is also true by default.

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[–] [email protected] 58 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Can I interest you in Sithrak, the god who hates you?

[–] [email protected] 60 points 7 months ago

The best part is that he's actually a chill guy.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Man this is fantastic. Can a gentleman pass the sauce?

[–] [email protected] 24 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Oglaf.com, beware, boobs and butts abound, and dongs too

[–] [email protected] 15 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It says right on entry that it started as an attempt at porn. It has all the things.

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[–] [email protected] 50 points 7 months ago

Maltheism or Dystheism might be your bag. Dystheism is the idea that God(s) are not all good and may be evil and Maltheism is a more recent addition that posits a strong belief that there exists only a categorically evil divinity.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Some forms of Gnosticism assert this.

Gnosticism is a broad group of early Christian cults that are influenced by earlier religions, so it's not a monolith and I don't want to paint them with the same brush, but:

Some of them include the idea that our souls (our consciousness) are from a realm or being of light, but the material/physical world was constructed by the demiurge (yahweh of the old testament) and has trapped us here.

According to this idea, Jesus is actually from that divinity beyond Yahweh, and is not the son of God. So Jesus' sacrifice was not just the crucifixion, but embodiment itself. He brings us knowledge (gnosis, thus gnosticism) of our true divinity and through that knowledge, salvation from this material prison.

There's an amazing book about all this, called, The Gnostic Religion, by the philosopher Hans Jonas.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

There's an amazing book about all this, called, The Gnostic Religion, by the philosopher Hans Jonas.

People should be aware that this book is severely out of date.

In 1998 the book Rethinking Gnosticism started a process of self-reflection over past work in scholarship and people started to realize they had their head up their asses with tautological thinking around Gnosticism based on significant propaganda from the church.

Here's Princeton's Elaine Paigels (author of The Gnostic Gospels) on the subject from an email debate years after this:

The earliest editors of "Gnostic" texts thought that they were dualistic, escapist, nihilistic, involving "esoteric ideas about aeons and demiurges," as you yourself write. As my former teacher at Harvard, Krister Stendhal, said to me recently about these texts, "we just thought these were weird." But can you point to any evidence of such "esoteric ideas" in Thomas? Anything about "aeons and demiurges"? Those first editors, not finding such evidence, assumed that this just goes to show how sneaky heretics are-they do not say what they mean. So when they found no evidence for such nihilism or dualism-on the contrary, the Gospel of Thomas speaks continually of God as the One good "Father of all"-they just read these into the text. Some scholars, usually those not very familiar with these sources, still do. So first let's talk about "Gnosticism"-and what I used to (but no longer) call "Gnostic Gospels." I have to take responsibility for part of the misunderstanding. Having been taught that these texts were "Gnostic," I just accepted it, and even coined the term "Gnostic gospels," which became the title of my book. I agree with you that we have no evidence for what we call "Gnosticism" from the first century, and have learned from our colleagues that what we thought about "Gnosticism" has virtually nothing to do with a text like the Gospel of Thomas-or, for that matter, with the New Testament Gospel of John which our teachers said also showed "Gnostic influences."

The history of what was actually going on and how the ideas developed is pretty interesting to follow.

The long and short is you had proto-Gnostic ideas like found in Thomas which introduced duality as a solution to the Epicurean argument that naturalist origins of life meant that there was no afterlife. Essentially, even if the world was the product of Lucretius's evolution and not intelligent design, as long as eventually that physical world would be recreated in non-physical form, the curse of a soul depending on a body would be broken. It suggests that we already are in that copy.

The problem was that by the second century Epicureanism was falling from favor and there was a resurgence of Platonist ideals, where for Plato the perfect form was an immaterial 'form' followed by an imperfect physical version and worst of all a copy of the physical. Through that lens, the original proto-Gnostic concept became that we were in the least worthwhile form of existence.

So in parallel to the rise of Neoplatonism you see things like Valentinian Gnosticism emerge which takes the proto-Gnostic recreator of a naturalist original world and flips it to the corrupter of a perfect world of forms. It goes from agent of salvation saving us from death due to dependence on physical bodies to a being that trapped us in physical form.

This debate and conversation goes all the way back to 1 Corinthians 15 where you can see Paul discussing the difference between a physical body and a spiritual one, and the claim that it's physical first and spiritual second, not the other way around. (And indeed, that was the early heretical point of view, but where it differed from Paul was the idea that we were already in the second version and he was arguing we were still in the first.)

So you are correct that certain later groups previously lumped together as 'Gnostics' believed there was a version of Plato's demiurge that corrupted pure forms into corrupted physical embodiments, and it's great you are aware it's not a monolith - but people should have a heads up if they start following up on your source that views on the subject changed dramatically around the start of the 21st century and are still evolving.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I also said that it's a broad group of early Christian cults and that not all of them espouse that idea.

Hans Jonas lovingly elucidates the rich meaning and symbolism of these early beliefs, and their origins. He has great respect and dedicated much of his life specifically to the gnostics.

More gnostic texts were discovered since his book, and expanded on our understanding. But it certainly didn't invalidate his excellent and beautiful work.

If you are into gnosticism I strongly suggest you read that book before (incorrectly) calling it out-of-date and discouraging people from reading it.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)

I also said that it's a broad group of early Christian cults and that not all of them espouse that idea.

Yes, and I acknowledged that it was good you had a more modern understanding of Gnosticism.

Hans Jonas lovingly elucidates the rich meaning and symbolism of these early beliefs, and their origins. He has great respect and dedicated much of his life specifically to the gnostics.

That may be the case, but no matter how much love one might have for a subject, context is king and if you are operating within an outdated and obsolete academic context it's going to impact the accuracy and quality of your information.

Someone in 1905 could have great love for Physics but their treatise on the pudding model of the atom isn't necessarily going to be something people should look at as authoritative just because of the pure motivations that went into its authorship.

But it certainly didn't invalidate his excellent and beautiful work.

No, the Nag Hammadi collection plus a few decades of reflection pretty much did do that actually. Jonas's work was the subject of rather extensive discussion in Williams' work even:

In reaction to this and other such analyses of “gnosticism” that tended to treat it as merely a heretical derivative, Hans Jonas attempted to delineate “gnosticism” ’s special identity, the distinct essence that made it “the Gnostic religion” and not merely a syncretistic mixture of borrowed pieces from other traditions.

  • Rethinking Gnosticism p. 80

It was in reaction to this sort of “explanation by motif-derivation” that a generation of scholars rose up in phenomenological revolt. They were essentially saying: “Enough with this endless business of listing ancient ‘parallels’—this ‘parallelamania’! Enough with this endless atomization and deriving of this piece from here and that piece from there! Let’s look at the whole, which is more than the sum of its parts, and talk about what the essence of that whole, that Gnosticism, is!” The well-known work of Hans Jonas, in his unfinished Gnosis und spätantiker Geist, much of which is distilled in the familiar English book The Gnostic Religion, typifies this phenomenological approach.6 Gnosticism has an “essence,” Jonas argued, a spirit of its own, something new that is not “derivable” from Judaism or from anywhere else.

  • Rethinking Gnosticism p. 215

There is no "Gnostic religion." There is no central 'soul' of it. Later Gnosticism sects are literally presenting the exact opposite cosmology as the earliest, and with it entirely different theology and philosophy to make sense of it.

James Frazier put a lot of effort and love into The Golden Bough but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Richard Carrier still working from within the unifying perspective it set forth regarding religions due to improved attention to nuances and differences that invalidated the earlier attempt to clump them all together.

Jonas was effectively a microcosm of this same trend, here exclusive to the claimed cluster of 'Gnosticism'. I'm not faulting him for it or suggesting this was some personal failing on his part - but he's a product of an era that was misinformed, and people should very much be aware of that if reading it today.

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[–] [email protected] 45 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

Misotheism.

Miso as in misogyny, misandry, etc. Not as in the delicious fermented paste that makes a lovely soup.

Its 'god(s) exist(s) and can absolutely go fuck itself/themselves, possibly for the following reasons...'

[–] [email protected] 21 points 7 months ago (7 children)

I worship the lovely soup.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Somewhat pedantically speaking, the belief that an evil god exists (exclusively or otherwise) is dystheism. Misotheism is the hatred of a god or gods. Dystheism implies misotheism, but they're not exactly the same.

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[–] [email protected] 44 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I genuinely believe that God exists and he is evil, like a toddler who fries little ants with a lens.

That could describe the Demiurge in Gnosticism.

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (6 children)

Yes, it is called Heresy.

 

For there is but one god and he is mighty.

 

IN HIS NAME WE SHALL PURGE THE UNCLEAN.

 

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY GOD-EMPEROR

 

FOR GLORY AND FOR TERRA

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 7 months ago

Some of the Gnostics reckoned that El/Yaweh was an evil demiurge. There are some that believe that El/Yaweh is actually Loki and that we are on the verge or Ragnarok.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 7 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago

Shit, now there's a religion I could get behind!

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 7 months ago (6 children)

God is unreasonable and scary when you are a Christian, at least for me when I grew up. You're basically told he can read your mind so you pretend he's a great guy, but to me an evil God is just Christianity.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 7 months ago

Some forms of gnosticism say this

[–] [email protected] 18 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (14 children)

The philosophers religion.

This is definitely some shit Nietzsche would crack up high as fuck on opium. Hell im pretty sure he did.

also, if we're going by traditional religious figures. Satanism. Though modern satanism is very different. I would argue that this is more accurately described as "christian satanism" or "christo-satanism"

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)

This is definitely some shit Nietzsche would crack up high as fuck on opium. Hell im pretty sure he did

He said the opposite and very clearly mourns the decline in religion throughout his works. You should probably read the material before making wacko statements like this.

“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?” -Friedrich Nietzsche

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago (3 children)

You suggested them to read Nietzsche and from it you got he mourns the decline of religion through all of his works? Maybe you should also get a re-read.

The decline of religion is stated as a fact, killed by men's rationality and evolution. As any evolution it has opportunities and risks, in this case the bigger risk is the loss of morality.

But the only thing he clearly advocates for is overcoming religion and God because they are not needed anymore. The new Man should make its own meaning and rules.

It's the whole concept of the übermensch which is the single central point of his all system.

The quote is not supposed to be his opinion (not directly at least), it's a character in a story.

It's like taking the stance of Cephalus in the Plato's Republic and say it's Plato's opinion, while it's clearly just a tool to let Socrates speak.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

This was pretty much every polytheistic religion. Not all the gods were evil but there were always evil ones.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 months ago

Generally they weren't depicted as 'evil' so much as necessary components of the divine ecosystem.

The idea of 'evil' as we know it largely developed out of monotheistic ideals and the idea that there was a perfect single good and that any opposition to that was inherently evil.

Zeus wasn't associated with the underworld, but he was a dick and not always good. And Hades wasn't always bad. In polytheism the gods were often a projection of spectrum of human qualities and behaviors and not monolithic.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago

Some forms of gnosticism also believe this. Look up the Demiurge and its background.

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