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Transgender athletes face growing hostility: four tell their stories in their own words (www.usatoday.com)

submitted 7 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Sport is such an unfair world, trying to find equality and justice in it is futile. We don't want kids taking growth hormones to boost their chances of making it into the NBA. But that also means we crush the dream of plenty of people. Athletes with asthma can't use their inhaler under certain circumstances. A few years ago an UFC fighter with Asthma got his win overturned because he used an inhaler inbetween rounds.

There was a huge discussion about allowing prosthetics in "regular" competition. Turned out at the time that proshetics weren't advanced enough to give an advantage. But I think we all know that this is only a matter of time. And eventually a hard ruling needs to be made that dictates in which direction sport goes.

Banning athletes who take as many hormones, hormone blockers, and other mediaction as transwomen usually take is 100% something that needs to happen. Especially considering that in certain leagues the usage of these substances is the only reason that transwomen are allowed to compete. That feels against the spirit of sport and TUEs. But untill more data exist, I doubt a useful ruling can be made.

What I don't like about the whole discussion is going for the "They aren't real women" argument. That feels degrading and hurtful for everyone involved. I don't want cis or transwomen to have to undergo inspections to determine their gender.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Banning athletes who take as many hormones, hormone blockers, and other mediaction as transwomen usually take is 100% something that needs to happen.

Those hormone blockers block testosterone and the hormones they take are estrogen. Those are not exactly performance enhancing actions. In fact, they do the opposite. If anything, we should be making sure that trans women competing in sports should be taking hormone blockers and estrogen.

You need to re-examine your take because it is truly baffling.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Why do transgender athletes have such a problem with competing in the all-comers category instead of the women’s category, which is reserved for XX born females who have been producing all of the hormones you describe above since birth?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago

You just made up those requirements. Are XXX and XXY women not allowed to compete in your sport that you made up the requirements for? What about women with Swyer syndrome?

As for why women would prefer competing in a women's competition, that question kind of answers itself.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

So why have womens sports then why not just let everyone compete in one division? That way we can avoid all hostility towards trans athletes.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Many sports have two divisions: Open and Womens. This even includes ones like Chess and various e-sports. The NFL, NBA, and MLB all allow women, or at least have no rule banning them (In the former two cases, ever, in the latter, any more, the 1952 ban was rescinded in the 90's.)

So to answer your question: Everyone can already compete in one division.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The NFL, NBA, and MLB all allow women

They may technically allow them, but do you think most women, even very skilled ones, would want to face the abuse they would get from players, coaches and fans if they decided to do it?

Just because it is allowed doesn't mean it wouldn't be a major hardship. And I think the vast majority of women in sports are smart enough to understand that is what they would face.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Replace women with black people and your argument sounds exactly like the enlightened individuals arguing that baseball shouldn't be integrated even if there were black men out there good enough to play ball with white men.

Jackie Robinson absolutely understood that he would face unyielding discrimination. So did the flood of black ballplayers that followed him in the years to come. Hardship didn't deter any of them.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I didn't say anything about 'shouldn't.' I'm explaining why it generally doesn't happen. If a woman things she can handle all of that discrimination and feels she's athletically capable, I'm not going to be the one to tell her not to.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I never said those were your words. I'm telling you how it comes across, and I'm letting you you're wrong about the reason "why it generally doesn't happen".

At least in baseball, a sport where intelligence, reaction time, skill, and experience matter a lot more than raw strength, the barriers for little girls who dream of playing in the Majors are a lot more than just the discrimination they might face if they make it that far. It's the deeply rooted cultural barriers that prevent women from even getting a shot, and in a sport where even 1st round draft picks spend years in the minors getting their reps in, lack of experience is a death sentence no matter how much raw talent you have.

At every level of play, girls are heavily encouraged to switch to softball or outright denied the opportunity to play. They're excluded from youth travel ball teams because "the boys will be bigger in a few years and need the reps". A lot of high school teams won't let them try out because Title IX considers a softball team equivalent. It took a lawsuit for Litttle League to allow girls to play baseball. Young women playing baseball at smaller colleges are often lured away with softball scholarships at big universities (not that there's anything wrong with pursuing better educational opportunities).

Every woman playing college or minor league baseball says the same thing; they faced far more discrimination as kids just trying to play than they ever have in the locker room once they got the chance.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Okay, so what is your explanation for why there aren't women playing major league baseball or in the NBA or the NFL?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I think I've already pretty thoroughly answered the question of why women haven't played baseball at the major league level since Toni Stone, Mamie Johnson, and Connie Morgan played in the Negro Leagues in the early 50s; women have been systematically shut out of baseball for decades, and while those barriers are slowly being torn down, their effects will continue to be felt for a long time. We're only just now beginning to see women play at the collegiate and minor league level, so I would imagine we're still a few decades away from women playing at the Major League level.

The NBA and NFL are entirely different stories. Those are sports where brute strength is absolutely required and being huge helps a lot. It's definitely not some fear of discrimination that's keeping women out of those sports though.

Edit: Because I've seen your other responses, and I can tell you've been waiting for me to say something about how men are stronger than women so you can have your gotcha moment, I'll also say that trans women are women, not men. That male testosterone advantage doesn't exist for someone who has to suppress theirs for at least a year before competing to a level below what many cis women naturally have. Trans women have competed alongside cis women for decades and it's never been a problem. Republicans just needed a new boogie man.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

women have been systematically shut out of baseball for decades,

That's what I said.

The NBA and NFL are entirely different stories. Those are sports where brute strength is absolutely required and being huge helps a lot.

So, again, there is not a single woman who is more skilled than the least skilled player in either the NFL or the NBA? Not a single WNBA player better than the worst NBA player?

I can tell you’ve been waiting for me to say something about how men are stronger than women so you can have your gotcha moment,

Isn't that literally what you said about the NBA and the NFL?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

That's what I said.

No, you didn't once say that women were systematically shut out of baseball, you said they'd face hardship and discrimination if they tried and that's why they don't bother. Not being allowed is not the same as not wanting to try.

not a single woman who is more skilled

Strength and skill are not the same things. Lia Thomas was a top ranked swimmer as a male with times that would dominate women's swimming. That's not what happened when she started competing with women though. She transitioned, lost a ton of muscle mass in the process, and her times became slower as a result. Exact same skill level (maybe even higher since she was more experienced at that point), but she's not remotely capable of competing with men anymore.

It's why I used baseball as my example of a sport where women could compete if given the opportunity. It's a far more skill based than the other major sports. Will the first woman to make it to MLB hit 500ft bombs or throw 100mph? Probably not, but that won't matter if she can strike people out or generate runs.

Isn't that literally what you said about the NBA and the NFL?

Yep, but it's not the gotcha moment that you think it is. Again, trans women are not men. Transitioning gets rid of any strength advantage they had as men.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'm not talking about trans women. I'm talking about all women.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Cool. This whole thread is about trans women in sports. When it was brought up that women are allowed to compete with men, you argued that women wouldn't want to because of the discrimination they'd have to endure, and you seem so excited to point out that men are stronger than women when people tell you why that's bullshit. Can you see why, in a thread about trans women in sports, that comes off as you trying to have a gotcha moment about how trans women are stronger than cis women and shouldn't be able to compete with them?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Excited? Can you please tell me how you determined I was excited?

Which was it, my tone of voice or my facial expressions?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I was going by how often you responded that way. It's cool though. I'm wrong. You win. Men are better than women or whatever.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'm pretty sure I said the exact opposite of 'men are better than women' since I was arguing that women could compete in men's sports if there wasn't such a big misogynistic psychological barrier to overcome.

Did you not read a single one of my posts?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Did you? Your nuggets of wisdom in this thread are that no one cares about women's sports, that the reason women don't try to compete with men is because they're afraid of the discrimination and abuse they'd face, and when people point out that there's a very real physical disadvantage that keeps women out of most men's sports, you drop some condescending accusatory question like "so the best woman sportball is worse than the worst man in sportball?", which, again, in a thread about trans women in sports, comes off as a gotcha question and an argument against the inclusion of trans women in women's sports.

I can see reading through your comment history now that you're clearly not the person I thought I was arguing with, but if you don't see how your comments in this thread could be taken the wrong way, I don't know how to help you.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Nuggets of wisdom? Gotcha questions?

I never claimed to be wise or trying to trap you.

Also, it's not about fear, it's about facing bigotry. There's a huge difference. Jackie Robinson was one of the bravest people in history in my opinion. I wouldn't expect anyone to have his level of bravery.

Maybe stop making silly assumptions about me. You already made the silly assumption that I wasn't even who I am.

Wouldn't it be amazing if, instead of regularly pointing an accusatory finger at me, you actually asked me questions?

Nah. You wouldn't learn anything about me by asking me.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Cool.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago

Like I thought, you didn't want to ask any questions or learn anything about me. You just wanted someone to talk at.