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It comes down to price. You can buy used ThinkPads and replacement parts for them quite cheap a lot of the time.
It's been a while since I've looked at devices from places like System 76 but if I recall correctly they are still over a thousand dollars when a used ThinkPad T440P for example can be found for around two hundred dollars.
Framework laptops are interesting and I hope eventually the modularity allows the components to go down in price. Right now I was looking at a 16 (which all sold out within 3 hours of pre-order launch) but it comes out to easily over 3k CAD for a disassembled kit, skimping on RAM and an SSD.
yoo I didn't know about used/refurbished Thinkpads being that cheap, I just checked and indeed you can find a T480 with 16GB of RAM for $248 on Amazon!
I can confirm this with personal experience. Wife has T470 (if memory serves, something around that) for 100€. That was from previous work and they offered my old laptop for cheap, so it doesn't really count as average, but not uncommon either at least around here. I got myself T495 a while ago for 299€ from "public" market and have been purchasing couple years old thinkpads for decades now. There's plenty of those available, they work just fine for the workload we have for laptops (I got a separate desktop for more power hungry applications) and they've proven to be pretty reliable workhorses since the brand was owned by IBM.
Framework specially is really interesting approach and I'd love to test to their hardware, but they don't have Finnish keyboard available just yet and I can get several used thinkpads for the price of one framework, so as long as I'm using my own hard earned money I rather spend it on a known brand where I already know what I'm getting into and spend considerably less money while doing so.
Also with linux thinkpads tend to work just fine or at least there's documentation and howtos to get everything working.
Where did you find a t495 for that price of you don't mind me asking?
Taitonetti.fi. Local shop which refurbishes and sells previously leased computers, so their selection varies quite a bit, but I've been a happy customer for years and they have frequent sales for the 'last of the batch' computers where mine came as well. However I think they don't ship to outside of Finland, so it might not be so helpful for you.
T440P is cheap for a reason. Personally I don't want a 6 pound laptop with a decade old CPU and a crappy TN screen. Something like a used T480 is reasonable though I guess
Those linux laptops are too expensive and they are not available in some countries
Used thinkpad is much cheaper
Maybe there's a better place for this question, but how do you make sure a used laptop is safe? Or would removing Windows and installing Linux be enough?
I want to buy a laptop for Linux, and would buy a used one so that it's cheaper but I have to admit I worry about it. I know one could be worried even about new laptops and what manufacturers could be up to, but I feel like the unknown arbitrariness of a used laptop gets to me.
Because of better accessibility. How so?
Because not everyone has the money to afford these new and expensive laptops designed for a niche market. They are still enthusiast-grade products, the prices speak for themselves.
Because not everyone comes from Europe / the US, so it's not easy to find these with affordable shipping.
Because these laptops are only normally offered new, which, for responsible and personal ownership, is excessive. There are thousands of used hardware lying around, why not put some life back into them instead?
It comes down to price, availability and ethical concerns. Unless money doesn't mean anything to you, why do you need a $1000 laptop when someone wants a device for higher education or personal casual use? The world doesn't need more rampant marketing of niche, hyped-up tech. While a fully-FOSS system may be the ideal machine for every Linux enthusiast, we live in a material world with finite resources and chasing after some unicorn laptop is unsustainable.
Because these are small shops that have limited availability outside North America, and are fairly expensive compared to Thinkpads which are widely used by corporations, and can be found pretty cheaply.
Cause thinkpads are cheap and easy to come by
Source: i work in ewaste
Out of curiosity, do you ever rescue laptops from your work and use or resell them?
I hope nobody recommends Thinkpads manufactured after 2020. They're pure garbage in so many ways, that there's no point to list them all.
Avoid purism at all costs. Watch Louis Rossman video on Purism mobile.
Since the regular points have already been covered by other people, I'll add one thing that I like:
Two batteries. The external one is drained first, and it can be replaced while the laptop is running, because there's an internal battery. I have 24Wh internal, a 16Wh external (it's old, originallly it was 24Wh) and 72Wh external, in a 12 inch laptop (achievable because 72Wh battery sticks out and acts like a stand), giving me more battery life than anything else without an external power bank.
And I got mine for dirt cheap.
I'd guess build quality is a big factor for most of those recommenders. I like Lenovo, even though other computers have better specs, because Lenovo's are tough and reasonably priced.
Because not one of those laptops have a TrackPoint style mouse.
You mean the nipple mouse?
Could be worse.
https://xkcd.com/243/
I always called it a nub. I haven't used one as an adult but I could definitely see myself calling it the clit mouse.
Nub is correct, also nubs are best laptop mouse once you get to know them.
Edit, Lenovo now calls them "Caps" and that is lame.
Thinkpads tend to have excellent build quality, solid firmware and well thought out design. Price to performance on second-hand models is always outstanding and their popularity ensures hardware compatibility with Linux.
Of the brands you named, I just don't trust the hardware. Tuxedo computers for example uses Tongfang white-label computers that they just slap their logo on. Quality control isn't as thorough as Lenovo's, firmware is sketchy, TDP tends to be all over the place and keyboard quality doesn't come close.
Thinkpads also have-- and I can't stress the importance of this enough-- a nipple. I don't really use it, but if you try to take it away from me I'll bite you.
I'd recommend against any lenovo laptop after the T580 and T490. My company switched to dell since the lenovo laptops had so many failures and weird issues that we'd have to keep an extra one in stock for every 10 in use.
But if the older stuff suits your needs, go for it. Lenovo used to make great laptops.
Agree with this. Any Dell Latitude can easily be as good as any Lenovo in terms of Linux support. Our company has moved away from Lenovo and only go with Dell's.
15 years ago I would have been surprised to hear that Thinkpads are cheap laptops !
For me it is mostly the price. I don't need much and a Seconds Hand ThinkPad ist enough for my needs and much less expensive than buying a New Laptop.
They can be found cheap as shit. I got a great t480 for less than $150 and another $50 I upgraded my RAM and battery. It's a really nice laptop and only cost me a couple hundred.
Cost.
Older Thinkpads remain extremely capable and (crucially) highly repairable. The T series in particular is also better built (read: more solid chassis) than many others, including some on this list.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to support these alternatives given the absolute shock difference in cost. $300 bucks for a used T series gets you a lot from a customizability, repairability, and reliability standpoint.
Cost and availability.
Most of those laptops cost over 1000€ if not even closer to 2000. And they don't seem to ship to all countries.
While you can get a good used Thinkpad for 500€ everywhere in the world.
Thinkpads are cheap and accessible basically everywhere. They are business-grade devices and you can get one when folks retire their machines. A lot of places practically give them away. They were just gonna get thrown out anyways.
Framework is dumb expensive - a 16 even skimping out on RAM/HDDs comes out to over 3k CAD, and that's for a disassembled kit -- pre-built with full components comes out to easily over 3.5k, which is like a MacBook price for the promise of upgradability down the line.
System76 are rebranded shitty components from Chinese manufacturers. They're not better for Linux than any general consumer laptop, and their entire position is basically branding regarding freedom and 1776. Ironic that a company so deeply American in nature basically just resells garbage from China.
Most of these are pretty expensive. I got a used Thinkpad for less than 200 bucks, and it works great for the price and my use case.
for a lot of people (me included), a cheap second hand thinkpad (or dell pro) with a light distro would be more than enough to cover their computing needs for years.
I've never met a Thinkpad that didn't like Linux :)
None of them are available in my country
Even if they'll sell one to you internationally, you're probably shit out of luck if something breaks and needs to be fixed under warranty.
I believe Dell even has some models that come with Linux preinstalled.
I'm sure it's not everyone's reason, but mine was "Thinkpad still has physical left, right and middle mouse buttons".
My thinkpad model officially supports linux, so there is no problem there. It is also much cheaper than any of those brands, and it's also available from the regular stores.
Refurbished ThinkPads are awesome!
Sent from my ThinkPad T580 (with both an internal and removable battery, I get 10+ hours of battery life)
I've heard of potential security issues when buying them. How can I mitigate that - buying from a safe source, wiping them etc.?
Thanks it sounds like simply wiping the system is enough to get around security flaws.
We're talking about Linux here. You'll probably wipe it anyways. Chances are slim the company that used it before put Arch on it.
Always wipe and do a fresh install. If you're installing Linux, its unlikely that the refurbisher will have installed your flavour of Linux anyway. If you want to dual-boot with Windows, most business ThinkPads come with a Windows Pro licence - just download the ISO and install it fresh, then install Linux.