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No surprise here. Apple's position, which I expect they'll likely eventually prevail on, is that none of Masimo's relevant patents are valid and they should have never been issued. Why pay money to license an invalid patent?
Furthermore, licensing a patent can give credibility to said patent, making it more difficult to prove in court that it was ever invalid in the first place.
I don’t really know any of the intricacies, can you elaborate on why they are not valid?
The short version is that a lot of patents were issued in the 90s and early 2000s for "inventions" that actually already existed "but on a computer!" After a lot of legal wrangling the standards got stricter and these never-should-have-been issued patents have been systematically invalidated, though it's a one-at-a-time process. I think Masimo originally claimed infringement of a dozen patents. From memory, it's now down to two patents that have not been entirely invalidated, and I think even those have already been carved down to remove most of the claims. So basically there are two half-patents left to litigate and Apple thinks they can finish those off as well.
Sure, Masimo filed a bunch of invalid patents... but the two that held up seem pretty valid to me.
They're not "the same thing but on a computer!". They are "the same thing but you don't have to stick a needle in someone, fill a vial with their blood, send the blood off to a laboratory, and wait for them to send you the results". Real time non-invasive chemical analysis of blood is a genuine invention and Masimo has been leading the world in that for a long time.
I hate patents. I think the world would be a better place without them... but like it or not they exist. And Apple owns a lot of them... so I'm not going to be sympathetic in the slightest when they find themselves on the wrong end of a patent lawsuit.
I wish to play devil’s advocate for patents. But I first would like to note we need to set aside lawyers, corrupt judges, and anything else surrounding patents.
Patents were made to help the little guy out. They provide a way for someone to come up with a unique idea and protect it from larger entities that could pay to replicate manufacturing cheaply and destroy the little guy before he can make his first sale. Patents provide indisputable proof that someone had the idea first and has the right to make a living off their idea. Ergo, the American dream.
Now to jump back to reality; this entire, wonderful, system that was built to protect the American dream has been ruined by the same thing that ruins society and has pushed all of us into a late-stage capitalistic hellscape… greed.
I don’t wish to accuse Masimo or Apple of being greedy. That is a slippery slope I don’t want to visit right now. But patents are a good idea that have been taken and manipulated to protect a few pocket books.
but the two that held up seem pretty valid to me
I’m not qualified to say either way but Apple’s $1000+/hour patent attorneys clearly don’t think the patents are valid and they’ve already shot down most of the rest. And Apple is so confident that they’ll win that they’re willing to pause sales and even (temporarily) disable a marquee selling point. Apple doesn’t need to be right on this and yet is confident that they are. For Masimo this is an existential question so they can’t not fight, even if they thought they had a weak case.
So based on all of that, I think Apple will prevail.
That’s very interesting! Thanks!
Apple is more than happy to leverage such patents when it sees fit. They’re just throwing a tantrum because they finally ran into a small corporation that they couldn't intimidate.
I don’t see how intimidation has anything to do with it. If you think the patent is BS and you have the financial resources to actually fight it, it’s good to fight it. It’s better for everyone when patents that shouldn’t have been issued are invalidated.
If you don’t think intimidation has anything to do with it, then you haven’t read anything about this or similar incidents and really shouldn’t be discussing the topic. Apple has a long history of leveraging soft and hard power, economic and otherwise, to force and coerce smaller players into one-sided deals or else. Apple is pissed here because it’s usage of the power dynamic failed to extort everything it wanted from Mossimo.
I wouldn’t really bucket masimo into the little guy” team- from my time in healthcare, they are really not an ethical company due to their aggressively high pricing on simple products only they produce, stifling competition through artificial lockouts and patent trolling.
They are absolutely a "little guy" when Apple calls on the phone. And it is a gross mischaracterization to describe them as a "patent troll." They do not collect patents for pure litigation purposes nor do the seek to use litigation to extort under the color of law for patents they do not use or plan to use.
To be clear, no one who lives in this space is a good actor with completely clean hands; however, it's just not true to paint Masimo in this light.
Yup, Apple doesn’t mess around. Masimo isn’t gonna see a cent from them. The sort of fail that usually means management changes.
It’s not invalid yet though. As of right now they’re in violation, and they went so far as to hire away Masimo engineers to make them work on a competing product. If you want the tech that badly why NOT license it?
If you want the tech that badly why NOT license it?
Because they don't think the patent is actually valid. Getting it officially invalidated is a process but if it really should have never been issued in the first place, then Apple is not truly infringing it and has no obligation to pay a cent to anybody else for it.
“”There’s lots of reasons to buy the watch even without the blood oxygen sensor””.
I’m sorry but that was the entire reason I was going to trade-in my series 4 for a newer one. So I guess my series 4 that barely last 20hrs will continue to live on my nightstand. I would wear a normal watch if my health wasn’t garbage or if I could ever feel my phone vibrate when it is in my pocket.
I’ve found the blood oxygen feature on the Apple Watch to be worthless. The error bars on its measurements must be massive, so I would get numerous measurements every day down in the 80s. Better, finger-tip-based hardware measurements taken at the same time were never below 96%. And I’m careful about wearing the Watch just the way Apple recommends. I ended up just turning the feature off entirely, because I don’t want junk data in my Health history. I actually agree with Masimo’s CEO, who said, “I really feel wholeheartedly that consumers are better off without it."
Yeah it's not at all accurate for me. I'm almost always at about 100% but the highest I've ever read is 96%. The lowest I've ever seen was 94% when I was at around 95%. I've never been sick enough to measure anything lower so maybe it's accurate when your health is shit?
You and Tim Apple can both be right on this one.
I’m sure Masimo will offer a watch with a blood oxygen measurement tool built in. You can just buy that one.
It will start at $1000.
🤷
Can’t you take a trip to Canada or Europe and buy one?
That is a valid option. However, I do not feel it is worth the investment to just purchase a watch.
To be honest when I made my initial comment I was having a bad day and reading Cook’s statement irrationally irritated me.
Don’t have to license a patent if your worst case scenario is you just buy the company.
I actually don't think you are too far off. About a week ago i read about Masimo unavailing their watch for $999. Not many people will buy a watch for that much even with a blood ox system in it.
I think Apple will wait a year or two for them to "fail" by not succeeding like the investors want and then offer to purchase the company. A super low ball price and then just keep moving on with their plans.
lol
They’re so up their own ass and stubborn about some things.
Their anticompetitive behavior lately (well always, but especially lately) feels so whiny and infantile.
They're kicking and screaming about their closed ecosystem and stealing patented information.
Does anyone know if the blood oxygen sensor in ultra watch 2 is used for measuring VO2 max?
I got the ultra 2 because I’m training for ultramarathons and I kind of like to keep track of this as I progress/age.
No, V̇O2 max is estimated by the Apple Watch without any help from the blood oxygen sensor. I’ve had the blood oxygen sensor turned off on my Apple Watches for years, but I still get V̇O2 max estimations after outdoor runs.
I believe even the original Apple watch could do VO2 max, so no it shouldn't.
Right, but just like this watch has better GPS than the others, I was curious if the additional hardware could improve VO2 max readings compared to previous watches.