This is the official technology community of Lemmy.ml for all news related to creation and use of technology, and to facilitate civil, meaningful discussion around it.
Ask in DM before posting product reviews or ads. All such posts otherwise are subject to removal.
Rules:
1: All Lemmy rules apply
2: Do not post low effort posts
3: NEVER post naziped*gore stuff
4: Always post article URLs or their archived version URLs as sources, NOT screenshots. Help the blind users.
5: personal rants of Big Tech CEOs like Elon Musk are unwelcome (does not include posts about their companies affecting wide range of people)
6: no advertisement posts unless verified as legitimate and non-exploitative/non-consumerist
7: crypto related posts, unless essential, are disallowed
Animal 15 began to lose coordination and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers. Her condition deteriorated for months until the staff finally euthanized her. A necropsy report indicates that she had bleeding in her brain and that the Neuralink implants left parts of her cerebral cortex “focally tattered.”
fuck
So I think people here need to be mindful of how much they don’t know about animal testing, how easy it is for the topic of animal testing to become inflammatory and how much musk-hate makes that even more likely.
Animal testing and experimentation is happening all over the place. And in such work accidents to happen, as with any surgery. And a common measure to prevent suffering is to euthanise. In fact I think euthanasia is prescribed so often that it’s controversial, but you should keep in mind that any animal experimentation setup is likely to have an intentionally antagonistic relationship between experimenters and animal carers and ethicists.
There are groups deeply and actively opposed to animal experimentation of any sort and will infiltrate and target labs and try to expose them any way they can. There’s a real chance that something like that is behind these revelations. Point is that it’s often not objective and misleads you into thinking the targeted lab is particularly bad when it’s actually just a selected target for political reasons.
All of which is NOT to condone animal experimentation (I’m a vegan for example). But you really should be mindful of how dumb media hype around this issue can be.
If you’re outraged for instance, when was the last time you ate meat and how well do you think that animal was treated both before it’s killing and even during? Better than the monkey in this story? Hell, when was the last time you ran over an animal in your car and did you really need to be driving at all? Did that animal die peacefully? Did you even realise?
How many benefits come to both humanity and animals too from progress from animal experimentation and is that worth some of the mistakes and suffering caused?
These are some of the better thoughts IMO, where musk hate is really not relevant here. From what I could tell from the article, it did not seem odd at all. If you care about animals, take the issue seriously and don’t make it about one very famous person who’s cool to hate right now. Animals, and humanity, frankly deserve better.
Animal testing is awful in the best case, agreed.
What this article and other articles about Neuralink allege is that the company blew right past any kind of ethical guidelines that the industry has in a desire to be fast. The industry standard is to avoid any "undue suffering". They admit animals will suffer but all effort must be taken to minimize it.
What whistleblowers have exposed is that Neuralink started putting devices in primate's brains when they knew the devices won't work and were deadly in predictable ways. For instance a lot of monkeys got their brains cooked alive because the device put out too much waste heat. This was done because Elon was getting impatient and wanting to see progress in primate trials, so they just YOLOed a bunch of obviously deadly devices into a bunch of primate brains and in doing so, tortured and killed all the animals needlessly.
Musk is unplugging servers with customer data and then transporting them in a van. He 100% has zero interest in proper procedure. Look at the QA of Tesla ffs.
Musk is a petulant child. There’s no chip. It’s an abandoned project that killed a bunch of monkeys for a bit of press.
I mean:
Neuralink also faces an investigation from the US Department of Transportation over allegations it illegally transported contaminated devices that were removed from monkeys’ brains.
If I haven't eaten meat for over 20 years and don't drive can I continue to take the moral highground on testing?
If you never use medicine that was developed with the help of animal testing I guess you could. If you do use pretty much any kind of antibiotics though, or are unfortunately diabetic and have to use insulin, then it would be pretty hypocritical.
I think part of my general point was that seeking "moral high grounds", at least as a judgmental behaviour, is a trap and can be dumb and can be part of the problem.
In a world rife with deferred ethics, I'd argue moral high ground urges and behaviours are an opiate to help us cope with the realities and difficulties of issues.
I also haven't eaten meat or animal products or driven or owned a car for a while, but personally, I'm wary of wanting to take moral high grounds or being too judgmental of those who eat meat or believe in animal testing to progress medical science. I don't think it helps the issue, argument or any animals frankly.
IMO, to get people to be better at empathy, you have to start with empathy. And then, if someone turns out to be a cunt, then well, call 'em what they are.
Otherwise, beyond all that, I personally am really not sure focusing on animal testing makes any sense if you care about the general state of animal welfare and the way humans treat animals. I personally suspect scientists in lab coats make an easy scarecrow with some subtle prejudices creeping in, and kinda probably judge people would prefer to target testing rather than the animal farming industry and the industries that destroy habitats. Outside of scientific research though, yea animal testing is probably complete trash.
As for my view on animals in scientific research, I think the whole thing could do with a pretty significant clean up where the model of scientific practice is probably in need of reform to be more efficient. Awkwardly, I suspect the scientific industry would find this difficult and for entirely shitty reasons.
Generally, I'm personally not sure where I stand on whether any animal experimentation is justified, but I'd bet much of what does happen is not entirely justifiable at all.
i don't need to pass a purity test or stake out a moral high ground to recognize right and wrong.
no one does.
From what I could tell from the article, it did not seem odd at all
Animal 15 began to lose coordination and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers. Her condition deteriorated for months until the staff finally euthanized her. A necropsy report indicates that she had bleeding in her brain and that the Neuralink implants left parts of her cerebral cortex “focally tattered.”
Along with claiming that no monkeys have died because of a Neuralink implant, Musk has said the startup “chose terminal mon[k]eys (close to death already)” as test subjects to “minimize risk to healthy monkeys.” However, Wired cites an anonymous former employee saying that is not true: Shown a copy of Musk’s remarks on X about Neuralink’s animal subjects being “close to death already,” a former Neuralink employee alleges to WIRED the claim is “ridiculous” if not a “straight fabrication.” “We had these monkeys for a year or so before any surgery was performed,” they say. The ex-employee, who requested anonymity for fear of retaliation, says up to a year’s worth of behavioral training was necessary for the program, a time frame that would exempt subjects already close to death’s door.
This didn't seem odd to you?
I agree with you, just wanted to add a couple things.
Be aware that not eating meat, while being an amazing stance for many reasons, doesn't prevent animal testing, since animals used in labs are bred specifically for that purpose, they don't come from the food industry nor they have anything to do with it. In the country I live there's a law that says that each lab animal can be used only for one experiment and when experimenting is done, if they don't end up with permanent damage, they can be given away to rehab organizations for adoption, otherwise they must be euthanized.
I think many countries (EU at least) might have similar laws, people just don't know, like I didn't until I went to a non-profit org specialized in rehab of rabbits, guinea pigs and rats used for animal testing, to adopt a rabbit (I kept them as pets for many years, they're fantastic pets). I learned a lot from them.
will infiltrate and target labs and try to expose them any way they can
Their intentions are good but infiltrating labs to release animals, without knowing anything about them, is wrong, it's being ignorant of the consequences.
For example, rabbits used in labs are mostly new zealand breed because they are very tame compared to other breeds, they're also among the biggest. Rabbits in general have very fragile bones, big breeds (more than others) need to grow up in spaces that grant them movement to be able to develop muscles to sustain their weight, they don't in labs, they're kept in very small cages all their life, so if you release them without proper rehab, the first time they try to stand up on their hind legs (rabbits do that instinctively) they'll break their spine and die, just like that.
All lab animals in general live in cages all their lives, suddenly "throwing" them out in the wild to fend for themselves, is condemning them to die horrible deaths. That's not to say staying in a lab is better, but what those people do is irresponsible.
Debates about animal testing are important and understanding the realities of them is good, but I feel like it's easy to overlook maybe the most crucial component of this: Musk has openly and clearly lied about these tests and the realities of what point his technology is at, seemingly to mask the grim reality behind it
He’s done that in all his businesses. Arguably that’s what makes him a messiah to his ilk. They think he’s a profit. When sane people realize he’s just a blow hard lying about things or is just completely out to lunch.
Which is pretty standard with these types. Akin to Homes.
Exactly. Animal testing is neccessary are doesn't usually look any better than this unfortunately, but lying about it should be (and obviously will be) investigated by SEC because by lying about it he created false impression of this product which benefited the company.
And to think they are asking for human volunteers now
No thanks, I've seen this black mirror episode.
"We're looking for losers with no future"
This makes me sick and so angry. I hope Elon loses it all and dies alone and in pain.
Anybody seriously considering letting one of Elon's companies put things in your brain should probably read the story of him crawling under floorboards to unplug random servers because "Elon knows best".
The man is a fucking cowboy.
i’m just glad the monkeys aren’t suffering anymore. With elon sugarcoating tesla autopilot and neuralink’s impact on monkey brains, how are we supposed to trust this man?
That's the neat part, you aren't.
Silly, just look at his bank account! That number clearly indicates he's the smartest most hard working person alive. How can you not trust that guy?!
veterinary reports show the condition of a female monkey called “Animal 15” during the months leading up to her death in March 2019. Days after her implant surgery, she began to press her head against the floor for no apparent reason; a symptom of pain or infection, the records say. Staff observed that though she was uncomfortable, picking and pulling at her implant until it bled, she would often lie at the foot of her cage and spend time holding hands with her roommate.
Kinda amazing they go to the SEC for investor fraud instead of the courts for persecution of torture
I wonder if these "scientists" were the type of kids that would burn ants to death with a magnifying glass too
Graduates of the Mengele School for Ethics.
Considering how hard they're pushing for human testing this isn't far off.
Why would anyone want any of this fucking garbage anyway? Look at how the fuck boy runs twitter, you want that in your brain???
"Pay me or I turn you off, lol"
At least he's honest and we can trust him. Oh wait...
Along with claiming that no monkeys have died because of a Neuralink implant, Musk has said the startup “chose terminal mon[k]eys (close to death already)” as test subjects to “minimize risk to healthy monkeys.” However, Wired cites an anonymous former employee saying that is not true:
Shown a copy of Musk’s remarks on X about Neuralink’s animal subjects being “close to death already,” a former Neuralink employee alleges to WIRED the claim is “ridiculous” if not a “straight fabrication.” “We had these monkeys for a year or so before any surgery was performed,” they say. The ex-employee, who requested anonymity for fear of retaliation, says up to a year’s worth of behavioral training was necessary for the program, a time frame that would exempt subjects already close to death’s door.
A brain implant could be a solution for people with brain damage or born deficits that help them regain lost abilities.
I would never have one implanted as a luxury gadget though.
They should put one in musk. Mandatory equitability is the only way to stop treatment like this.
He never uses any of his technology. He has never been in any of his rockets. I bet he even gets driven around in the back of a Maybach or something.
I remember way back on reddit after hearing the neuralink buzz, I went to /r/neuralink and asked questions about how they would prevent infections with such procedures.
The answer?
"Well its just on the outer skin and doesn't really pass the blood brain barrier so its fine", I felt so validated and was blown away by how laissez-faire they were with infections, guess that little blurb was company policy!
Reddit is a now a marketing/customer relations platform disguised as a discussion forum, and has been since it got big long ago. Hundreds of bot account post nonsensical bs around the site for appearing natural until it's their time to defend a corporation with some anecdotes. This is why smaller fediverse instances are important.
Say anything critical about a company on a popular subreddit, and there's a horde of accounts repeating and upvoting the companies talking points. especially if the company has its own subreddit.
"I hate elon musk but… here's why it's actually good thing" "I hate apple but… " "I hate trump but… " "I'm not a fan but… " "I'm not a conservative but… "
Trying to appear as neutral as possible while defending every negative attention against the mother ship.
Considering what Elon has become - I don't want anything to do with him and his stuff. Just like with Zucc.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Public documents obtained by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) and seen by Wired indicate that Neuralink’s macaque subjects were euthanized after suffering various complications, including “bloody diarrhea, partial paralysis, and cerebral edema.”
Those are now posted on its website and cited in the letters it sent to the Securities and Exchange Commission on Wednesday accusing Musk of securities fraud, referencing the reported $280 million Neuralink has raised from investors to create a brain computer interface.
Wired notes a December 2019 experiment outlined in one of the documents saying one monkey had to be euthanized after a piece of Neuralink’s brain implant broke off during the surgical process, leading to infection.
Another macaque mentioned — known as Animal 15 — “began to press her head against the floor for no apparent reason” days after receiving the implant, and her condition only went downhill from there:
Along with claiming that no monkeys have died because of a Neuralink implant, Musk has said the startup “chose terminal mon[k]eys (close to death already)” as test subjects to “minimize risk to healthy monkeys.” However, Wired cites an anonymous former employee saying that is not true:
Last year, the PCRM filed a complaint with the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) alleging that Neuralink’s practices violate the Animal Welfare Act.
The original article contains 369 words, the summary contains 215 words. Saved 42%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
While there is an obvious issue with Musk clearly being in a position to know that this was going on and not shutting it down, it saddens me that there was (is) a team (multiple teams?!) of highly qualified medical scientists that were (are) psychopathic enough to actually do this horrific shit over an extended period of time. Everyone involved should be stripped of everything dear to them and placed in a small dark hole for the rest of their miserable lives.
“no monkey has died as a result of a Neuralink implant,”
I bet that’s a bit like saying “Mr. Thorax didn’t kill Mrs Lender, the bullet did. We have it in custody right now.”
🤥
Personally I don't have an issue with the animal testing part. New medical procedures are often tested on animals, that's how you save lives. But Musk is clearly making shit up here and now tries to proceed with human testing? With the amount of stupid hype he's spewing about it I don't believe absolutely anything that is being said about this technology. I say let him go first and show us how useful this is.
Reading these comments after watching Guardians of the Galaxy 3 just hits different. Unless Elon himself is removed from his position, crimes like these simply won't stop.
Damn, at least with Tesla the human test subjects know the risks before turning on autopilot.
In all seriousness, this is disgusting & needs to be exposed.