Asklemmy

I think the important thing is really just that mental illness doesn't shield you from accountability for how you impact other people, and for a personality disorder that primarily manifests in traits that harm people, that's a hard thing to reconcile with that person's merits. Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't, just that because you are still responsible for potentially hurting people, and have a disorder that makes you very likely to do so, those things will be very hard for people to square.

Another example is paraphilias. Paraphilias can include things like pedophilia, which manifests in a desire to do something that would subject someone to profound amounts of trauma, the likes of which most of us couldn't even begin to appreciate. Can someone with such a paraphilia be a good person who is kind, and does not harm people in that way? Yes. Can that person be largely a good person in most contexts, but cause people enormous harm as a result of their paraphilia? Also yes.

In some ways we are all people with conditions that affect who we would be otherwise, and in other ways we are all just people, and conditions are used descriptively to communicate the traits that we have.

At the end of the day, the thing that matters is how you treat people. If you cause people harm, it might be more understandable given the context of a personality disorder, but it doesn't absolve you of any responsibility. And if you don't, then you haven't done anything wrong. And I mean that for each moment in time, each interaction. Humans are messy and complicated, and generally ideas like "good person", "bad person", are reductive.

I'm sorry you feel trapped or defined by your diagnosis. That can be a painful place to be. I have a close friend with borderline personality disorder who has at times felt similarly. Only thing that matters is whether you're an asshole. Only thing that ever has mattered, only thing that ever will.

Edit: just want to be very clear- the fact that it will be hard for people to engage with you purely based on your behaviour in a given interaction is not something you deserve. Its the actions and how they affect people that count, even if I can empathize with why it'd be hard for people

Oof... This is a tough one. First, I'll point out that this post is EXACTLY what I'd expect from a narcissist. Woe is me, zero accountability. Assuming you've actually been diagnosed by a psychiatric Dr, they didn't diagnosed you with NPD on a whim. You were diagnosed with NPD after you did something, or more likely after a lot of times doing harmful things, and finally taking some initiative to figure out what's wrong with you. Maybe friends or family had to really push you towards getting help. Maybe your just young enough that seeking mental health help is normalized, so you were able to go for it.

"As someone who has NPD I haven't abused or manipulated anyone ever." -As someone with NPD you wouldn't be able to recognize if you had ever done these things. This entire post is pretty manipulative actually.

NPD is a very tragic illness. One of the worst parts imo is that, almost always, one of the symptoms is the person not being able to truly recognize their own disorder. This can be dangerous, and also infuriating. A person's entire life can fall apart around them, and they are incapable of doing the self reflection necessary to understand why, let alone do the work to fix the problem. People will spend years trying to "save" a loved one, to get that person to recognize that it's THEM who is the problem and needs to do the work, just to get to the exact same spot a decade later because that person CAN NOT recognize it. Recognizing there is a problem is the first step towards fixing yourself. Since NPD usually precludes the person from being able to recognize the problem in themselves, it becomes impossible for them to save/fix themselves. It's truly insidious.

All those things you listed would make you a bad person if you didn't try to correct them. And maybe you actually are. I certainly hope so.

Edit to add: asking someone with NPD to be able to self reflect and do the work to change, is like asking a paraplegic to run a marathon. It might seem to others that the person is REFUSING, when in reality they literally cannot physically do so. However, unlike the paraplegic person, a person with NPD causes harm to everyone around them, and the only thing a healthy person can do is cut toxic people from their lives. It's not the person with NPDs fault (one of the other great tragedies is that it is almost always a result of shit parents) that they are toxic, but they are toxic none the less, and unable to stop it. I'm sorry you ended up this way, I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.

As someone who has NPD I haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever.

That you are aware of.

Because they have a tendency to not take accountability. Nothing is ever their fault, there's always an excuse, there's never an unqualified apology. If you are an exception to the rule, good on you.

I know two people in my life with NPD. One person is capable about having conversations about how he impacts the group socially. The other has just been cut out of my life permanently for refusing to address his issues.

People with at least certain types of NPD tend to use/manipulate/victimize people in ways that hurt, scare, and anger. People who have experience dealing with such NPD sufferers often have unresolved grudges which they project onto anyone with NPD. (Similarly, they tend to label NPD anyone who triggers their unresolved issues.)

In a perfect word, everyone would be emotionally mature enough not to be triggered or even injured in the first place by someone exhibiting manipulative/narcissistic behavior. But we don't live in a perfect world. Victims of emotional abuse have valid reason to hurt and be scared and angry. It's reasonable to say that they don't have valid reason to demonize people with NPD. But whether demonizing people with NPD is "valid" or not, it's understandable. At least as understandable as is any sort of projection.

So, this is a personal question, and definitely don't feel obligated to answer it, but if you "haven't abused or manipulated anyone ever", can I ask if you've gotten any verification of this assertion from an impartial observer? For instance, has a therapist used a term like "covert NPD" to refer to you?

Also, being honest here and speaking personally, I have suffered abuse and manipulation of a distinctively narcissistic sort for a number of years. I don't feel like I harbor hatred toward the individual in question today. (Though I'd really rather not ever interact with them again.) But it definitely was a long process to reach the point where I could say that. And it's pretty certain that even if the individual to whom I refer had/has issues that lead them to abuse and manipulate me, I must admit that I similarly had preexisting issues on which they wouldn't have been able to prey had I not had such issues. (And, full disclosure, if this individual ever had an NPD diagnosis from anyone with more authority than my own armchair, I'm unaware of it.)

I've since run into and worked closely with at least one other individual who habitually acted in very narcissistic ways toward me and others and I was able to mostly view them with empathy and avoid being triggered to an extent that wouldn't have been possible had I not previously worked closely with the former individual I mentioned above. I can't say I'm thankful to the first one per se, but at very least I can admit that having interacted with them, in some ways I've become a stronger person. (Even if in others I've become weaker.)

As others have written it’s deconstructive towards other people plus NPD are hard to make understand their behaviour is problematic. In their view you are the problem if you have a problem with them. Depression, ADHD and other things do not have that trait. With them you can talk them into therapy and about potential problems they are causing.

Just look up "narcissism", "NPD" or "narcissistic personality disorder" and the results are about how dangerous people with NPD are and how to spot somebody with NPD or if your ex boyfriend is a narcissist etc... etc...

Thats because these people ARE dangerous. My dad was a narcissist (my own assumption) and his new wife is a narcissist (both of her parents actually got proper diagnosis and testing, both were positive)

My new step mom actually tried to ruin my life. She tried to throw all of my belongings away, kicked out my cat and kicked my sister and I out. (right as I turned 16 and my sister turned 20). DCF got involved and they did jack shit cause my dad bought a separate house to put us in.

My mom is also a narcissist and she is the most exhausting person to deal with. She has hit and hurt me in the past and blamed me. Constant gaslighting, constant blaming, constant lying. Narcissists are the most damaging and dangerous people you can come across. Some are obviously less insane, and are tolerable, but if I knew someone have serious NPD I'd completely avoid them and hardly talk to them.

Also I'd like to clear up, if you think you are a little smarter, or better than everyone else, I wouldn't call you a narcissist. However if you think you are more important than everyone, and think its OK to lie to or hurt people, even a little for personal gain, you are a narcissist.

Personality disorders as a rule are some of the most difficult mental health issues to treat, and Narcissistic is one of the hardest.

Because the narcissist generally manipulates others to achieve their goals, it is one of the more "outward-facing" disorders, and therefore affects others. That's why you experience "hostility" as opposed to having mental illness like depression, autism, or depression, which affects the person who has it.

Another problem with treating narcissists is they have a complex and often distorted relationship with truth, characterized by a lack of self-awareness, grandiose fantasies, manipulation, and projection. They may use dishonesty and deception to achieve their goals, but can also adapt to situations where honesty is necessary.

Narcissists are highly sensitive to criticism and rejection, which can lead to defensiveness and denial when confronted with the truth. They may become aggressive, hostile, or even violent when their grandiose image is challenged. It could be the root of this post itself.

Narcissists are incapable of understanding and relating to others’ experiences and emotions. This makes it difficult for them to comprehend the harm caused by their dishonesty and lack of truthfulness. They are their own worst judge.

Recognizing and understanding these patterns is crucial for dealing with narcissists and setting boundaries to protect oneself. We shouldn't soft-sell NPD. It's a part of the "Cluster B Personality Disorders (of A, B, and C)," which are the most harmful because they aren't as apparent as Cluster A, who generally are odd enough to draw attention, and they are not needy or anxious like Cluster C.

Cluster B is:

1. Antisocial personality disorder: characterized by social irresponsibility, disregard for others, and manipulation
2. Borderline personality disorder: marked by emotional dysregulation, unstable relationships, and impulsivity
3. Histrionic personality disorder: characterized by attention-seeking and excessive emotionality
4. Narcissistic personality disorder: marked by self-grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy

As someone with an NPD "friend" - I have to look beyond the insults and threats and see the insecurities and vulnerabilities behind them. Most people just can't or don't want to do that and will be insulted if not scared away by the things my friend says to them. There's also a stigma associated with being friends with someone who is abusive - I keep the friendship secret from all but my closest friends, who have a hard time understanding it themselves.

It's stigmatised because the term has entered common (mis)usage to describe people who are just selfish

I think you raise a very valuable point here. "Narcissist" is so often used simply as a label for the villain with no consideration for the terms use as a medical diagnosis.

In your case, you may be labeled a narcissist but you make a continual conscious effort to account for the weaknesses implicit in that diagnosis. This is different from the vitriolic insult so often used to condemn people.

This is a failure on our part, in the way we use the term. You may be (technically) a narcissist, but, you are not "evil" in the way that others popularly labeled "narcissists" are. You are a good person.

People don't understand that medicine is about helping the patient. They read the diagnostic criteria for NPD, and they don't understand that those things are only medically significant if they harm the patient. They think the criteria is a list of bad behaviour that hurts others.

Teach people what medicine is, and the stigma disappears.

I believe ignorance is a common reason even among professionals. They only think of the grandiose traits; they confuse the vulnerable traits with BPD or MDD; and they think it has to be close to ASPD to be diagnosable.

My loved one developed NPD by having a terrible childhood and early teenage years with undiagnosed AuDHD. Bullying, rejection, isolation, school failures, etc. The solution was to start lying, manipulating, trying to get something (anything) going their way, seeking validation... They received a depression diagnosis only at first 🫥.

Did you know people with ASD score higher in vulnerable narcissism traits? That means this story could be common. Traumatized neurodivergent children are already at higher risk of developing mental disorders.

But no, nobody talks about NPD this way. It's always about grandiose traits being dangerous for others (which can be part of the experience, but there's so much more). I hope it changes someday.

I dunno dude, it's super weird. Sarah Z has a video about this, IIRC the explanation there was something like, people have latched on to "narcissist" as a thing one doesn't need to worry that one is oneself but can be tacked on to anybody one dislikes. Also there are demons involved for some reason.

(Having killed ShortFatOtaku's Twitter guy, and taken all his stuff, how would "the narcissist" go about extracting the validation??? Sounds made up.)

(Also it's always "the narcissist" like there's just one extremely busy person out there.)

NPD might make people struggle with empathy, but nobody, who is out there thinking everyone they meet could be "the narcissist" who is out to get them and not worthy of respect or consideration, is themselves killing it on the empathy front.

The Narcissist Scare by Sarah Z — This explains a lot, the term has been wildly misused and thus people don't really understand what it actually means.

Plus there is a focus on punitive 'justice' very much in the systems we live under instead of either trying to understand people and trying to help them either directly or indirectly.

Allegedly, it is a difficult neurodivergence to live with in a healthy, non toxic way. However, I've never personally seen that from anyone I know officially diagnosed with it, in fact they are well aware that they have it and are trying to do better, a lot of people are armchair psychologists and love to diagnose with no proof, misattributing it to other things, either trauma or the systems we all live under which causes people to act in terrible ways.

For those who have genuinely been affected by the actions of those who genuinely have it though, I suspect they feel as if they have to see as everybody with it as exactly the same to try to defend themselves. However, in actuallity this likely just makes people worse because not having community or people to point out when you are doing harmful things or getting you help is likely going to make people act out or seek out others who will reinforce their beliefs instead of encouraging them to get help in ways that actually work instead of the vitriolic hating ways most do to them. Though yes, I get that people shouldn't have to be around those that do them harm but by seeing anyone of any group as all the same it may be doing more harm than good instead of getting to know individuals.

Personally, I think a lot of the systems we live under don't help with the behaviour of anyone with neurodiverse conditions nor those that need protection from actual toxicity because they are stagnating and do not allow those that need help to get it due to being alienating and often lacking the resources they need to get help.

Self defense

Some people like and/or need having something to blame. npd just happens to be an easy target.

Same with adults who have a sexual attraction to children. They didn't choose to be like that, and if they make sure to not act on those impulses, they shouldn't be demonized. Conversion therapy has been demonstrated not to work, but if there's any way they can receive help with their impulses rather than condemnation and vitriol, that seems it would be more helpful.

How do you cope with NPD?

Also, what kind of things can other people do to support someone with NPD?