this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2024

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351

Military officials reportedly discuss how to handle illegal orders from Trump – live | US elections 2024 | The Guardian (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 6 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 248 points 6 days ago (6 children)

Veteran here. If it's any consolation, basic training included a fairly lengthy course (well... relative to the other shit they teach there at least) about how to identify and what to do when given unlawful orders. Lots of emphasis on DO NOT FUCKING FOLLOW THEM. Lots of emphasis on the Nuremberg trials / if your defense is "just followed orders..." then you're fucked. They talked about people like Hugh Thompson Jr. and the severe back pain he sustained from lugging around those massive balls.

The military does NOT want to become Nazis or stormtroopers. If Trump plays the whole 'execute order 66' card, military leadership will tell him to suck a dick.

It's the cops I'm worried about. And the neonazi civilians responding to Trump's stochastic terrorism.

[–] [email protected] 113 points 6 days ago (2 children)

What if I told you, there are PLENTY of soldiers in every branch ready and waiting to betray any oath for daddy trump. They went through the same classes you did and just nodded along to get through it. Now they're trained, and ready to fill the void when Trump fires or demotes anyone who refuses his orders.

[–] [email protected] 62 points 6 days ago (10 children)

And what if I told you that there's also plenty of soldiers that will uphold the constitution and will be ready to fight for it.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 6 days ago (1 children)

They better get ready for a fight because it's coming. they will have to decide if they will just resign in protest or if they will fight. How many will actually fight? Who knows. Nearly everyone I know personally in the military, has said many times "it's just a job"

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I'm not in anymore but I was one of them, reported and told others I would turn my gun on them if they tried to start "beating hippies heads in" when we were getting ready to be sent to a city protest. The military is not all Republicans like the police as it attracts a huge swath of different Americans doing for different reasons.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago

There are for sure good soldiers. My own cousin is one of them that I know would put down anyone who tried to turn on his men. But we have to acknowledge that there are MANY bad soldiers who would be more than willing to turn on this nation, and there are also plenty that would rather be aloof and not stick their necks out for a fight

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Yep there's 2 sides to this. Which is why I think civil war is inevitable. There will be 2 factions, Trump loyalists and American loyalists.

At some point Trump wants the military to be completely subservient to him. This is needed so he can abolish Congress and create a new office for himself as dictator. He knows if he just leaves office after 4 years the court cases will resume and he will end up in prison. He will do anything to stay out of prison.

We can only hope the generals won't be loyal to him and when Trump fires the generals that their respective armed forces remain loyal to their general during the Civil War and not to Trump.

This is exactly what China and Russia wanted all along, to destabilize the usa. With us out of the way China will expand in the Phillipines and Taiwan while Russia expands its European offensive. I expect India to take advantage as well.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That would require massive and obvious reorganizations of the military. It would also effectively hollow out the officer corps with so many of them refusing an illegal reorganization. (The organization at the high levels is set by law)

It's far more likely Trump will take volunteer veterans into the DOJ, give them a badge, and run it like a military unit with all of the equipment and none of the accountability. It's easier, faster, and legal.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 6 days ago (5 children)

I keep saying this again and again. Being set by law, does not fucking matter now. Being illegal, does not matter now. They will MAKE IT legal, or they will hand wave the illegality.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (5 children)

Sure, great, but the military isn't about to hand waive anything. They will send the MPs to arrest soldiers for desertion. They will process people out of the military for following illegal orders.

They aren't robots and they have decades of experience in slow walking stuff, malicious compliance, and straight up refusing illegal orders. There isn't just one officer to fire either. It would take them years to build a military willing to be used against the American people.

They can have a DOJ task force up and running in a month. They can be recruiting veterans in 2 months. They can use the surplus system to transfer armored vehicles to the DOJ in about 6 months if someone is dragging their heels. And the military is actually in the middle of getting shiny new armored vehicles so seeing M113 APCs showing up on the surplus list isn't even going to raise eyebrows.

I sincerely hope they smash their heads against the military for another 4 years. But by the end of his last term they figured out they could use a DOJ task force to beat up and abduct protestors. Just adding surplus military equipment and Trump cultists to that isn't going to be hard to figure out. Stop trying to put the military in a hole it's not going to easily fit into and start looking at what's actually likely.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

You're absolutely correct.

Rank and file grunts may be gargling nazi balls, but the officer pool are often college educated and will not hand over America to a dictatorship. It'll take a decade just to fire all the officers who won't follow his illegal orders. Another decade to reform into a stazi.

The secret police will be local police forces organized under a Fed Dept probably Homeland or ICE.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 days ago

They don’t have to make it legal.

Trump will pardon anyone he feels like. They can also just fail to prosecute or let cases against perpetrators just die in legal limbo.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Trump has the Supreme Court, the Senate, and almost certainly the House. All three will do as they are told. If the millitary refuses illegal orders, I think those orders will be made legal. Either that, or he will be allowed to replace military leadership.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

It's going to take more than just replacing the leadership. Every e-nothing gets that same training; whether illegal orders are coming down from the president himself or their immediate supervisor or anyone in between, they'll be met with resistance.

Now, there are plenty of trumpanzees among the ranks who will put their loyalty to Agent Orange over their country and constitution, and do whatever he says no questions asked, just as it is with the non-military population. So, if we see an 'order 66' event, what's going to happen is a SHIT TON of in-fighting within the ranks to the point that our military readiness is going to nosedive, leaving us vulnurable to other forms of attacks, but I don't see troops actually hitting the streets like that in any organized fashion.

Again though, what I'm worried about are the cops. They're already completely loyal to that shitstain, and have a long and regular history of extreme unnecessary violence and not actually following the law. And they're already mobilized and infused into every single city in the US. Combine that with the civilian trumpanzees and we've got a very large force that have been itching for a civil war for like a decade at least.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Stand your ground laws should work on cops. An acorn might fall and they'll start blasting randomly, best to nip that in the bud.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 days ago

We're getting to the point where laws don't mean shit. You have the right to defend yourself, whether or not it's a legal right.

Thought provoking question of the day: Leading up to the holocost, would the average German citizen have been justified in taking up arms against their own government in order to prevent it? If yes, what line was crossed that gave them the moral obligation to do so? And finally, what's the modern equivalent of that line?

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 6 days ago (1 children)

They talked about people like Hugh Thompson Jr. and the severe back pain he sustained from lugging around those massive balls.

Did they talk about that absolutely nobody from the My Lai massacre - the example you brought up - saw any real consequences, with only one guy - who killed 22 - serving 3.5 years before Nixon got him out?

Or that the highest ranking surviving Nazi, who had a real say in German leadership during the war, was Hitler's trusted advisor and unrepentant, unwavering follower, even after the war, got off with 10 years since the US and the UK committed similar war crimes as he did, so they didn't sentence him for that?

Or the Hague invasion act and US war crimes that precipitated it? Or the US war crimes since?

I think those guys will be just fine saying "I was just following the orders of the magnificent Cheeto".

[–] [email protected] 40 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Nope! This is basic training we're talking about. They teach only the details that accomplish the lesson. And the lesson was don't follow illegal orders. If there's more to the story that contradicts the lesson, you bet your ass it was omitted.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 6 days ago

Officers in every branch are also trained to protect their people and be transparent with leadership about their limitations. Remember Captain Crozier?

Anyone who's in long enough and is politically savvy enough to get stars, stopped caring about that stuff a long time ago.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Give the military time. Good people will get tired or will retire. No one wants to have to fight this much.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago

You've never met an e-4 with the regulations on their side. They will professionally become a rock and hate-love every second of it.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago

Except the military is trained to… y’know fight and defend the constitution.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 days ago (1 children)

They can force people to take the classes, but they can't force them to agree with them. I'm glad they go over this, but they should probably test people on this stuff without warning them it's a drill and see how they actually respond.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 days ago

The thing is, they do...at least when I went through basic, they'd be PTing me, screaming at me, asking all sorts of questions to see if I know and understand and can perform under pressure.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 5 days ago

He should have been arrested last time. Now we have to hope a soldier or officer has enough of a spine to destroy his career by so much as telling the Cheeto in Chief "no."

[–] [email protected] 77 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (3 children)

"Pentagon officials discuss what to do if Trump were to attempt to deploy the military domestically, CNN reports"

"After CNN reports, the Trump administration discusses how to replace all Pentagon officials, CNN reports."

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 5 days ago (4 children)

Like when he orders the execution of Mark Milley? It will perhaps be one of the most significant moments in US history where we either stay the US or become Turkey.

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[–] [email protected] 51 points 6 days ago (1 children)

No worries, with project 2025, anyone not completely loyal to Trump or a minority will be retired in order make the military great again!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago (6 children)

After which the military will be so ineffective we won't need to worry about it.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Changes made to dod policy in September allows him to use the military domestically upon request of local police force.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 6 days ago (4 children)

Which would still violate the posse comitatus act

[–] [email protected] 65 points 6 days ago (2 children)

SCOTUS:

[–] [email protected] 17 points 6 days ago

I want to move for a bad court thingy

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago (4 children)

No. Just no. That's been completely blown out of proportion. It's a reissue of a decades old memo to update intelligence sharing. It's for groups like the Defense Intelligence Agency.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That's why he wants Hitler's generals instead. Much more suited to his style of governance.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 days ago

I hope the generals succeed in their attempts this time.

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