this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
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Idk what this has to do with the post but I'm a simple woman. I see MSPA, I upvote.
Dad, get off Lemmy
I love you for this
Did you hear about the blind carpenter? He picked up a hammer and saw
Jeez is it 3AM already?
"Me are going?"
No one says "me are going", but lots of people say "me and X are going", indicating that for native speakers, coordination of noun phrases functions differently than a single noun phrase.
In a contrasting case, people might think the phrase "I and John are here" sounds wrong, though they'd accept "John and I are here." If you're going by the "pure grammar" rule of "remove one subject from the phrase and check the grammar", you'd have to accept either of those as equally viable, but many people don't.
Close but not quite: the correct grammar is to always mention yourself last (with second person coming first if present in the sentence and then third person) and, as you say, use I or me depending on which one it would be if the others weren't in the sentence.
Wrong
"Me and Dave are going spelunking"
"Remember that Dave, you, and I are going spelunking"
"This is a picture of Dave and I spelunking"
Right
"Dave and I are going spelunking"
"Remember that you, Dave, and I are going spelunking"
"This is a picture of Dave and me spelunking"
the correct grammar is to always mention yourself last
That was exactly why I mentioned this case. What exactly separates the grammar of "I (and Dave) am going" vs "Dave (and I) is going"? They're both "subject plus verb", indicating that the order of the coordinations is a matter of style, not grammar.
As to the subjective vs objective cases, the reasons I brought that up is that grammar seeks to explain the rules of language as native speakers use it. Therefore, the only "wrong" grammar is constructions that natives wouldn't use, such as (eg) mimicking a Japanese grammar structure and saying "I the house to go." Since native speakers often use cases like "Me and Dave are going spelunking", it's not wrong, merely a different register of speaking.
Accepting only prestige dialects as "correct" grammar is why people continue to think things like "black people don't speak right", despite the fact that African American English has the same consistency of grammar that the prestige dialect does.
I would encourage people to code switch rather than adhere to one style of language over another in every case. Imho, it's kind of problematic that language itself has become racialized in America to the point where people can actually be criticized or made fun of for speaking in the "wrong" style associated with their perceived ethnic background.
What exactly separates the grammar of "I (and Dave) am going" vs "Dave (and I) is going"?
The same thing that seperates the first one from "going Dave am I and". Word order matters.
the order of the coordinations is a matter of style, not grammar.
Categorically false
Therefore, the only "wrong" grammar is constructions that natives wouldn't use
Wrong again. Plenty of native speakers of just about every single language there is have atrocious grammar. Native ≠ correct grammar.
It's not wrong, merely a different register of speaking
It's wrong when it comes to grammar. Whether or not gramatically incorrect colloquial speech is acceptable and sometimes even preferable to being gramatically correct (it is in most cases, but in some it can be very grating) is a different matter entirely.
Accepting only prestige dialects as "correct" grammar
Nobody said anything about dialect
people continue to think things like "black people don't speak right
As I mentioned earlier, colloquial speech can be as good as or better than gramatically correct speech in some cases.
You're mixing up a whole lot of things that aren't grammar and just generally being wildly wrong all over the place.
Native ≠ correct grammar.
Then who's the authority on grammar? We don't have a single entity like the academie francaise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise?useskin=vector
Just because there is no central authority does not mean there is no general consensus. English classes from elementary school to university aren't accidentally in line with each other by some weird coincidence.
Descriptivism has a place in the evolution of language, but not in a wholesale "everything native speakers might say is grammatically correct if they are understood".
English classes from elementary school to university aren’t accidentally in line with each other by some weird coincidence.
So who has the authority when experts disagree? Like I said, no one is saying "I house go" but some people think "Give this to whomever comes here first" is correct while others argue for "whoever". Descriptivism by definition seeks to explain how language functions. Prescriptivism only works within a narrowly defined framework, like APA or MLA for example, but even within those there's disagreement.