this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2024
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[–] [email protected] 91 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I'll quote Tim Minchin here

"If you wanna watch telly, you should watch Scooby Doo
That show was so cool
Because every time there was a church with a ghoul
Or a ghost in a school
They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The fucking janitor or the dude who ran the waterslide
Because throughout history
Every mystery
Ever solved has turned out to be
Not magic"
[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago

Like one of my faves of his

Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proved to work? Medicine.

[–] [email protected] 74 points 4 months ago

Germ Theory

Diseases used to be associated with paranormal powers or the wrath of gods in most cultures. The discovery of microorganisms and advancement of medicine may be our civilization's greatest achievement.

[–] [email protected] 49 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (28 children)

Science deals with the natural, gods are by definition supernatural.

Science can not either prove or disprove existence of supernatural. It may only erode the reasoning why supernatural should exist.

That reasoning is subjective, and as such, there are no definite answers to your question unless we add additional constraints.

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Evolutionary biology was the main one

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 months ago (4 children)

Which is a bit silly to me, in that any religious person could simply explain evolution away as the mechanism by which a god or gods created humanity (to iterate on form until creating their supposed "perfect image").

God being a human who was also his own father is fine, but the suggestion that evolution could be part of god's plan is where we draw the line?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (13 children)

They had to reject it because any religion with a creation myth specifically says how the god created people. To accept an alternative story would reject the notion of the book as truth.

The religious are not looking for answers, they already have all the answers by definition of their holy book or whatever. They're looking for confirmation bias and reject anything that goes against that.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 months ago

any religious person could simply explain evolution away as the mechanism by which a god or gods created humanity

Many did, and this position is called Deism. In most versions, god(s) started the universe with initial conditions that would lead to the formation of intelligent life, and then withdrew.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Could be, but evolution makes God redundant, and then it is the whole simplest explanation thing that kicks in, right?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago

Occam's razor doesn't mean that the simplest explanation is always true, but rather that it's usually the most likely to be true.

Using simplicity as a measure of how likely something is to be true always felt a little anthropocentric. How do we determine that something is simple if not via the systems and abstractions that are easy for human minds to comprehend?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (6 children)

No.. not necessarily. Why can't God command the creation of something and then allow the natural process to create said thing? Evolution doesn't disprove the existence of God.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 4 months ago (4 children)

Heliocentric model.

Cosmic distance and time. Light speed as a limit.

The geological age of the Earth.

Dinosaurs.

Evolutionary theory.

Continental drift.

The periodic table of the elements.

Quantum theory, including wave-particle duality.

The Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Black holes.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago (3 children)

It's interesting, some theists would just say "that's how God built the universe" and be satisfied with that.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago

The halfway sensible ones would. But the ones that thing religious texts are magic books would burn the former as heretics if they were allowed to do so.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Religion is deliberately non-falsifiable. No matter what scientific proof you can come up with, at the end of the day they just say God is fucking with us burying skeletons of creatures that never existed and such.

The fact that it needs to be constructed that way is frankly all the proof I need to toss religion in the garbage, but everyone isn't so cavalier about the disposition of their "immortal soul."

Honestly immortality and the very nature of God are both abhorrent to me. If religion were true, the best I could hope for is to be cast into a lake of fire and be destroyed, so I kinda win either way. Worst case is all religion is wrong but so is atheism and I have to spend eternity with an entity who is less of a malicious cunt than the Abrahamic god.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Religion is deliberately non-falsifiable.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the non-falsifiablity of religion has evolved as a result of a sort of natural selection. Essentially all the falsifiable religious beliefs have been falsified, and thus have trouble propagating.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Letter from Charles Darwin to Asa Gray (22nd May 1860)

With respect to the theological view of the question; this is always painful to me.— I am bewildered.— I had no intention to write atheistically. But I own that I cannot see, as plainly as others do, & as I shd wish to do, evidence of design & beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.

Source

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

On that note, what's up with the obligate coprophagy of the koala? And their famously smooth brains? I'd make the koala, were it I in the high seat, but a kind and caring creator wouldn't.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 4 months ago

The scientific method itself considers any as yet unsubstantiated theory as hypothesis. Applying this to the idea of God would leave one agnostic on the issue.

A couple of prominent examples of religious dogmas disproved by scientific discoveries are the Copernican Revolution and evolution by means of natural selection.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 4 months ago

God's an unfalsifiable claim, so there really isn't anything that could test that hypothesis.

Pretty much any scientific test/discovery that counters anything in a religious text whose adherents view the text as completely truthful and literal. But sciencey stuff might not have much of an effect on religious folks who view their texts less literally.

But anyways... heliocentrism, germ theory, gravity, evolution through natural selection, probably a huge chunk of the field of archeology, plate tectonics, radiometric dating, probably the written language at various points in human history (but that's not really a discovery), trans species organ transplants, decoding DNA, direct genetic engineering, CRISPR, radio telescopy.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Translative spoken word by the time a second hand account of the word of god becomes the word of the person speaking. Weird god never came back once we had verbatim recording techniques to address these inaccuracies.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago

It wasn't any particular scientific discovery that weakened religion. It was the popularity of science fiction that did it. As Arthur C. Clarke put it, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." People can now imagine how miracles are done without invoking anything supernatural. We might not have the tech to do it yet, but we have a pretty good idea of potential methods. That has placed a lot of "creator god" religions under pressure. Create life? Tech will eventually do it. Create a world? Sure, tech again. Given enough tech, a solar system can be spawned. Water into wine? We're halfway there with Kool-Aid. We already have vimanas (those ancient Hindu flying vehicles). We call them airplanes or helicopters. We can destroy a whole city with a single weapon. So why should we worship a supreme being who supposedly did those things?

Assuming we can conquer poverty, religions that survive will be centered around improving the human condition. Worshipping dieties will eventually fall by the wayside. It will still be a long process. You can't dispel faith with reason and facts. And people in poverty tend to embrace religion because it gives them comfort and hope that things will be better in the afterlife.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago

Religion exists for a number of reasons, but the primary purpose it serves an individual is as a foundation for their overall worldview.

"Faith" as many call it, serves to answer questions we don't have answers to.

Where did we come from? Why are we here? What happens after we die?

Religion gives us comforting answers to these questions, and as these questions are ultimately unanswerable, can do so in perpetuity.

Religion has also tried to answer questions that we didn't yet have answers for.

What are the sun, moon, and stars? Why are there tides? Why does it rain?

God was long accepted as the source of these things, and prayer was thought to be the best way have any influence.

But today we have answered basically all the major questions. We have a working model of the entire solar system, down to the weather on other planets. We figured out how to turn rocks into computers. All that's left is the unanswerable.

As for where we come from, we've filled in a lot of gaps. Evolution is now the accepted answer for where Humans came from, now the question is where life itself came from, and if there's life outside of Earth (and how much).

Philosophy has given us plenty of options for what our purpose is. There are plenty of ways to wrap your mind around your own identity without turning to the supernatural.

And our study of anatomy and neurology suggests that our conscious self ceases to exist after death, the only thing standing in the way of that belief is the very human tendency to be in denial of our own mortality.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago

Printing presses, industrialized education, and the industrial revolution.

Giving people en mass the time study and educate themselves.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You need to define God first.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago

Sanitation.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago

Doesn't even take science to debunk religions, yet you can't prove the non existance of a god

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Science and religion are often compatible, I know of some Hindu thinkers (for example) who say scientific knowledge is to be taken as truth and religious truth should not contradict it - just that this scientific knowledge cannot explain the whole mysteries of the cosmos. You might be aware of "the god of the gaps" and arguments like that, or that God somehow created the universe using the laws of physics as we understand them. Historically, scientific thought and religious thought were often united and people pursued science and philosophy due to attempting to understand God (like many Islamic scholars in the 7th century or like Renee Descartes who ultimately sought to prove the existence of God by pure reasoning). Science as a complete system of belief without some religious aspect is actually a fairly recent phenomenon that likely had very little to do with any particular scientific discovery.

Indeed, science can do very little to explain why things happen. It's great at explaining how - e.g. science is great at explaining how fire burns or how a calculator can display an answer but it can be iffy on why. Now, "why" fire burns is probably more of a malformed question like what's north of the north pole but we're human, we like to ask why and seek purpose. Meaning makers.

The decline of religiosity wasn't really driven by science showing biblical stories weren't real, it's a process driven by material reality and class relations. Although many people considered themselves Christian or religious in the west, they were very Deist and didn't think God had much influence with the world apart from answering paradoxes like what was the primum movens etc.

Going further back, religion wasn't a choice or something to reason to - it was just your life and your community. In medieval Europe, you didn't really reason your way into a system of beliefs they all tied together into an economic system called the feudal mode of production. You just were a Christian and so was everyone you knew. Maybe some monks debated some esoteric aspects of theology but most people just lived their lives. This lasted for a while through to the Enlightenment and the emergence of capitalism in the 17th century. Except for some malcontents and rebels, people still didn't reason towards being Christian, say. It was just your life - more like a hangover from that older mode of production and social cohesion than something necessary to maintaining capitalism.

Fast forward to the actual decline of religiosity and rise of spiritual none-of-the-aboves and nothing-in-particular. This was a process started in the mid 20th century (not really in WW1 which was conceived often as a holy or religious war by the soldiers and officer class including miracles and appearances of angels and so on). In reaction to the rise of consumerism and individualism - now religion became a choice or affectation! This is where we start to see the irreligious begin their massive growth but especially by the beginning of the 00s. It's tempting to say Quantum Mechanics, GR, a scientific basis for cosmological origins like the big bang are responsible for the loss of religion - but in my view, these just coincided due to a third cause (that of economic changes and the settling in of mature capitalism).

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I'm curious as to how people toughed it out despite most christian religious institutions being so uniformly corrupt and plain irritating. Shit, the crowd FSTDT dunks on, american politicians, and internet theology were all it took for me to get so deeply disillusioned I wanted to just cut strike everything from my mind, regardless of who's right or wrong. Merely not having other options to a point where leaving is unthinkable? Fear of reprisal from legal and cultural consequences?

Then again, I suppose at that point they would've just shifted to a different, less institution-focused denomination instead of just saying "fuck the whole thing" like I did. It wasn't a matter of the facts, it was a matter of me being fucking sick of them.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

The most reliable way to lose faith isn't through science, it's reading their holy text.

In general, nothing about science ever shakes a theist's faith, and I doubt it ever will. Reason being: the moment science breaks new ground, religion retreats further back into the unknown. As long as there is an unknown, theists will have something to take shelter from.

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