this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2023
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under what ethical system?
Mine, obviously. But feel free to correct me if you disagree with something.
there's no reason to believe what you claimed. a claim made without justification can be dismissed without justification.
What unjustified claim did I make that you disagree with? Seems all rather uncontroversial to me.
i don't need to disagree to disbelieve. i do disagree, but without establishing your justification for this claim, it's kind of hard to argue against it.
The justification was that creating things has a cost, even if a copy doesn't, and that we should distribute that cost as fairly as possible among the people benefiting from the creation.
that's doesn't follow
Idk what to tell you but: Yes it does. We can't really argue if you refuse to elaborate your point.
when you drive over a bridge, do you tip the engineering form? the contractors? they're the ones who created this experience for you.
Yes, you do, in the form of buying gas or paying taxes. You don't even have to use the bridge to have to pay for it.
so use isn't tied to paying. one has nothing to do with the other.
It depends on the system. In taxes, yes. Use isn't tied to paying. In consumer goods and services, they are not paid by taxes. So they do have a direct use/buy causation.
no, they don't: people make things without being paid all the time.
I pay taxes, those were used to pay the people who build the bridge. And yes, taxes should be fair. If it's a private bridge then the owners have every right to demand a fee for crossing it.
not the owners: the designers. what if I copy the bridge and put it in my front yard: do you think I owe royalties to the engineering firm?
Yes, of course. They created the design, it cost them time and money, you want to use it, so you should pay part of those costs. Or to put it differently: You both use the design, why should they be the ones to pay for its creation, and not you?
they still have the design. I haven't taken something from them. I don't owe them anything.
Who says you can only owe something if you take something away first?
Think about how rent works. The building or appartement will still be there, loose value over time and need repairs whether you live there or not, yet you still owe the owner rent if you do.
your might owe under almost any circumstance, but almost all of them have to drop with a mutually agreed contract or transfer of property. what circumstance do you think created the debt here? and what if someone walks across my front yard bridge? do they owe the engineers too? it's just silly.
This is going into feasability and away from morality, but ok.
The law is the "mutually agreed contract", and the usage created the dept. You can be expected to know that the design of a bridge might be copyrighted, you can't be expected to know that a bridge is private property and crossing it requires a fee. Ergo it's on you to contact the owner of the design, and it's on you to collect a fee from people using your bridge if that is what you want to do.
why?
Because of the sentence before the one you quoted. I'm sorry, but this is getting silly.
rent is immoral
No it's not. Why should someone let you stay in a building they payed and/or worked for, without you paying for a share of the upkeep, repairs, insurance etc., and the fact that the building exists in the first place?!
if you feel like rent as it currently exists even vaguely approximates the kind of model you claim you haven't been paying attention. rent is, at its core, having other people pay for something because you own it. landlords are infamous for not paying for upkeep and repairs. the incentives behind owning property that other people live in lead to bad outcomes for people who can't afford to own.
I'm talking about rent in principle, not how it is often perverted today. You can make just about anything immoral if you add price gauging and not-fulfilling-contractual-obligations to it. There are a lot of rents with fair prices, e.g. almost everything that's not housing, but also apartments from social housing or housing associations.
rent doesn't exist in principle, it exists in practice. and in practice, the history of rent is a history of wealth extraction. if its "perverted" today, it definitely was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago. if you aren't aware, this is a pretty basic leftist thing. if property can be held privately, those who own the property can use that ownership to extract wealth from people who need water, food, and shelter, but do not themselves own property. they can use that extracted wealth to buy more property, depriving ever more people of places in which to live their lives without paying somebody else for the privilege. and so on. thus "private property is theft".
in any case, rent isn't an uncontroversial example of how to fairly pay people who do things. rent is deeply political, and has been for most of modern history. it isn't just common sense that we ought to allow people who own things to make money off that ownership, that's a political statement, and one that should require some justification, considering its material impact on poverty, homelessness, and the accumulation of wealth.
This is a completely useless stance when you want to figure out if rent itself is morally good or bad.
There are a lot of instances of rent today that are completely fine. For example, my parents rent 2 rooms of their appartement to university students, and they just ask for a share of the costs they have, proportional to the size of the rooms. That is rent, but free of other influences like profit maximization, and all parties seem to be very happy with the arrangement. Or if you rent a tool or car from a local company, you'll pay mostly for a share of the acquisition and repair costs, and a bit on top so the owners and employees of the company can keep the lights on. There is absolutely nothing wrong about this form of rent.
If you're saying that rent + limited supply + capitalistic profit maximation + corruption is a problem, then I absolutely agree with you, but it would be false to blame that on the rent part of that equation. And I would definitely not go as far as saying that private property in general is bad, expecially not very limited private ownership like a person owning the house they live in or part of the company they work for. Too much concentration of ownership is a problem, not the concept of ownership itself.
hard disagree. we have to examine things as they exist in the real world, not as we would like them to be. if we are only figuring out whether it would be good in principle, we're failing to recognize whether that principle is actually founded on actual observable fact. and the observable facts say that rent has always been a potent tool for capitalists to extract wealth from people.
also disagree. why are these university students renting? schools could be providing housing to students if we invested public funds into that kind of project. what does the necessity of rent for students do in practice? well, the extra costs involved in having to rent space on the market in order to go to school structurally disadvantages marginalized students. students whose parents can cover the rent are able to maximize their time learning, take advantage of more extracurriculars, or save the money they make from a job for themselves, while students who can't have to live in their cars, take jobs to cover costs, or just not get the education they want. the scale of the problem is smaller, but the nature of the problem is the same. those who have not must give their money to those who have in order to have a place to live.
lets just go through this. the supply of available property will always be limited. capitalism is defined by the private ownership of the means of production. corruption implies a system not working as intended. capitalism is intended to maximize profit, capitalism requires private ownership, resources are always limited, and rent requires private ownership. you might as well just say "private property + the limitations of a finite universe + private property + the incentives of private property is a problem". i'm kinda joking, but not really.
this is a problem of terminology. generally when socialists or other lefties are talking about private property, they're talking about land and the economic abstractions of land ownership. socialist politics makes explicit distinctions between personal property and private property. i hear this argument alot, honestly, and if you find yourself making it as an argument against criticisms of private property more than once, i'd just recommend learning a bit more about what socialists believe, because its kind of just talking past what we think the problem is, and how we propose to solve it (democratically, instead of at the whims of rich folks).
you've talked about corporations a couple times, so i do wanna just say that those aren't necessarily reasonable structures in and of themselves. it isn't a given that the owners of a corporation should earn a profit, or that owning shares in a company is something beyond critique. there are more democratic organizational structures that don't concentrate power towards those who have the most stuff.
I don't get why you keep trying to spin this as some sort of fairytail. Separating different things to figure out their role in an overall system is a completely normal and useful thing to do. If your car is broken you don't just throw it on the scrap yard, or even declare cars in general non-functional. You look inside and figure out which part is the problem. And you can attribute the failure of the car to one part and declare the others functional, even if you'd never see those parts driving alone on the highway (although I gave you examples of that for rent). This is not a matter of facts vs fiction, this is about keeping separate things separate and not mixing things up, correlation vs causation and stuff.
That's not an argument against rent, that's an argument against students having different means and having to pay for things in general. Why do students have to pay for food themselves? Why do they have to do their own house work when others can afford to hire someone? Those are all good questions, but they only concern rent in so far as it's also a thing people pay money for.
There is so much wrong with this that I don't even know where to begin.
Resources are not always limited, not in an economic sense. If there are more houses than people wanting to live in them then houses are essentially "unlimited", in the sense that you'd probably need to pay someone to take it off your hands. Owning a house also has costs attached to it, and you'd probably have a hard time covering those costs with earnings from rent in this case. People owning property in places no one wants to live in can attest to that.
Rent doesn't require private ownership. Property can be owned and rented out by public entities, and that's actually pretty common.
The rest is a gross oversimplyfication of the matter, as well as a logical error. You argue that X is in the equation, X requires private property, ergo private property is the problem. That's just wrong, or at least not compelling. As an example, burglars require air to live, but the problem of burglaries cannot simply be reduced to the existence of air.
And uhm ... the universe is infinite as far as we know, but that's another discussion entirely.
Ok, could be that we mean the same thing. I personally think that a certain level of private ownership is necessary in order to establish responsibilities and solve disputes. E.g. if I own my house then I get to decide what to do with it, but I also have to be the one to take care of it. That might be what you're calling personal ownership, while I'd just say that's private ownership within healthy limits.
that isn't my point. my point is that rent has always existed within unjust systems, and is itself a tool for those systems to accumulate wealth. if we're taking gears out of a meatgrinder and trying to identify just how much that gear contributes to the problem of grinding people into meat, we're missing the point. in practice, the system in which rent operates is built to deprive people of resources. but even then your framing is not agreeable to me. we aren't talking about a machine, we're talking about a complex socio-cultural phenomenon that developed organically over generational time spans. the idea that we could even rip the word "rent" out of the context it exists in and get anything worthwhile out of analyzing it like that is not reasonable to me. like, cultures and economies don't have parts like an engine do, they have trends and policies and outcomes, and those things can't reasonably be reduced to cogs in a machine.
you're doing the thing again. separating rent out from the system its built into and analyzing it only as the act of exchanging currency for housing itself. i'm trying to engage in a systemic critique, not a stubbornly isolated look at a single piece of a larger whole. the problem of students "having different means" is not the point. you have to look at the larger picture. on a population scale, how does the requirement to pay your resources into the pockets of wealthier people for basic housing affect a society?
rent is, in the case of the university student, a material obstacle towards getting an education. those who do not have money or home ownership are more likely to be denied an education as a result, and will have less access to money making opportunities in the future. the money they could have been saving for themselves goes into the pockets of richer (whiter) people, so they are less likely to be able to pass on money they make during their lifetime onto their kids. non-white people are much more likely to be renting than white people, and that is historically because non-white people were restricted from home ownership in the past, and were not able to build the kind of generational wealth that comes from home ownership. rental arrangements reinforce existing social stratifications by providing the means by which the wealthy (and white) can continue to extract resources from the poor (and brown), as they have done for generations past.
like... sharecropping was rent, and its sole purpose was to explicitly ensure that freed slaves continued to provide wealth to their former masters. the actual observable impacts of rent are to transfer wealth from people who have no resources to those with resources to spare.
i was being facetious. my point was more that these factors you seem to think are separable are interlinked. just as a wake up call, there are currently more houses than people wanting to live in them. there are many multiples of houses left unoccupied for each homeless person in the United States, and the price of housing hasn't done the thing you're saying it would. instead, homelessness is increasing as landlords continue to raise rent, and the prospect of owning a home is becoming more and more out of reach for more and more people.
there is a rabbit hole i could go down about this, but i don't really wanna. my position is relatively simple. housing is a human right. putting literally any barriers up that prevent people from getting a place to stay are wrong. imposing extra financial burdens onto the people who have the least money is wrong. rent is such a burden, even for public housing. nobody outside the people who live on the land should have ownership over the land, not wealthy folks, not the state. housing co-ops, self-governance, that is what we should strive for.
i don't really know how to respond to this. air isn't a socioeconomic phenomenon with a proven history of driving wealth inequality? it doesn't interact with race and class in ways that structurally disadvantage people who are poor and brown?
lol. disagree, but fine, ill be less hyperbolic. "the parts of the universe we can build houses on currently are finite." is that better?
i'm just gonna end with this: i'm not prepared to expand upon the exact shape of why i think you're wrong, and why i think your rebuttals fail to provide a compelling challenge to the ideas i'm trying to convey. (that is not to say there aren't compelling challenges to socialist ideas, there certainly are.) i used to hold a very similar position. the idea of doing away with private property once seemed ludicrous to me. then i actually engaged with socialist and anarchist arguments for why they believe the things they believe, and i found them compelling. i'm not saying you will too, but i am saying that the reasons i believe these things are knowable and there's plenty of media out there that explains it better than i ever could.
private property is theft.
And you are accusing me of not properly supporting my claims??
They made a justification. They showed you how people couldn't make these things without people paying for them.
but that's not true. people make things all the time without being paid.
Less people make things without being paid than those who make things to get paid. That is a common fact we can both agree on. If you need the number of open source games compared to the number of paid games then I recommend you grab those numbers yourself.
"snake game" returns over one hundred twenty thousand results on github.
You are equating someone's terrible hobby project to paid games like it's 1 to 1. You are simply arguing in bad faith. Have a good day though, hopefully, one day we can converse properly.
you're moving the goalposts.
Not at all. I just assumed you understood the basics of quality.
you never mentioned 'quality' until you wanted to disqualify data that didn't support your position.
Yes, because there is a basic assumption. Those projects aren't consumer-facing games. Those are hobbies. You know it and you are simply arguing in bad faith. I know actual game developers who released their games for free or under a pay-what-you-want model. They refuse to do so again because they can't support themselves by doing it. I am a game developer and I won't release my games for free because I need to support myself. There is all the data you need. Find me other data saying otherwise.
this is rich coming from someone who is moving the goal posts.
the plural of "anecdote" is not "data"
It's more relevant data than you are providing.
your insistence on relevance is giving the lie to your denial about moving the goalposts.
there are over one hundred fifty thousand results on github for "tictactoe".
just how many paid games do you think there are, by the way?
this doesn't prove anyone ever needs to be paid to make something. a single counter example disproves the claim.
github shows a hundred thousand repositories for the query "hangman". assuming 10% of them are false positives it's still a great number.