this post was submitted on 07 Sep 2023
33 points (71.4% liked)
Memes
45665 readers
945 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
So are fellow labourers.
This isn't "capital", this is just humans.
LOL
oh, so how much capital do you own then?
that would explain your deflection as being entirely self-serving if you are not of the working class
otherwise you're just another temporarily embarrassed millionaire, any day now you will bootstrap yourself to the ruling class certainly
LOL you've confused me for someone who cares what you think of me.
I've no idea what you're rambling on about.
Not likely.
I guess you just abide the status quo like a good :LIB: then
keep feeding your and enjoy the ride I guess
Again, no idea what you're talking about.
"Muh Human Nature" is a classic debunked liberal argument against socialism/communism. If you think you are 'left' then you really should maybe read some theory or watch some youtube videos or something. Second Thought has a lot of good intro to political economy explainer videos.
The larger point is that the workers that lack solidarity (as you claim), are specifically incentivized to think in this way by their boss under capitalism. "Crabs in a bucket" mentality is a good shorthand description of what I am talking about. The capitalists and bosses want workers to be in competition with each other, not in solidarity (think union organizing). This is why I called out your 'class traitor' thinking espoused by your comment. Brain worms refers to this. You have bad ideology in your brain due to living in the world of neoliberal capitalism, it has instructed you on how to understand the world. And you seem just fine with following those instructions to the letter.
I'm not arguing against socialism/communism, I'm arguing against the first paragraph in the meme you posted.
I don't.
This is faulty logic. The fact that an understanding of the world includes benefits to capitalists and bosses doesn't imply that the understanding of the world either (1) is incorrect or (2) came through their instruction. You've shown neither of those to be true.
I appreciate it is painful to acknowledge that bosses exploit workers and that one can find comfort imagining that the exploitation is due to factors which can be altered but wishing it to be so doesn't make it so.
Their boss may well give them an incentive not to cooperate but that doesn't mean there aren't other, much more primal forces pushing towards the same end. Looking at the behaviour of workers and all humans for that matter, they don't seem to need any encouragement in order to step on each other.
"These days, at least in the West, there seems to be a consensus that capitalism is just "the way things are." Everyone from capitalist economists to your dentist to your weird uncle is firmly convinced that humans are just hard-wired for capitalism. Let's explore that idea. Hope you enjoy!"
Is Capitalism Really Human Nature? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Pass.
If you're not able to express succinctly in prose whatever idea you think I need to waste my time watching be revealed in a YouTube video then I suspect it's not an idea worth paying attention to.
Since you seem to be a conservative misanthrope, maybe you should learn about prosocial behavior in humans. It's kind of the main evolutionary advantage humans have. It is what provides our ability to coordinate large groups. I don't think the status quo is inherently "the way things are" because history shows there have been various forms of society with differing levels of exploitation and prosocial and antisocial tendencies. Your ideology claims that the status quo is due to 'human nature'. Mine does not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology
Here's just a few of many examples of prosocial behaviors being inherent to humans, as we are highly social beings.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6786781/
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/images/uploads/Wilson-EvolutionProsociality.pdf
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-021-01241-2
So not sure what your point is.
I'll just cut-and-paste from another comment:
"Human beings must necessarily cooperate and aid each other in order to survive. It’s how our species evolved. However, that doesn’t mean humans only ever aid each other, or even that they care about others except as a means to survive. Humans will cooperate when it’s beneficial and also stab their fellow humans in the back, step on them and exploit them when it’s beneficial. That’s why all we have are systems of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death."
And yet never an absence of exploitation.
That humans in general, including fellow labourers, are what are reckless of the health and life of the labourer, not just "capital". You're deluding yourself by limiting your criticism to capital alone. Or even worse, deluding yourself by assigning blame to capital alone.
Ya, I already said you seem to be a misanthrope.
misanthrope mĭs′ən-thrōp″, mĭz′- noun
One who hates or mistrusts humankind.
A hater of mankind; one who harbors dislike or distrust of human character or motives in general.
A hater of mankind; a misanthropist.
And no exploitation is a 'differing level of exploitation' even if you don't want to understand that. Just like zero is a number.
You're claiming there have been human societies with an absence of exploitation? And you have sources to back up your claim?
Nothing will convince you because you are filled with hate for fellow humans, and you like being that way.
Do you realize you're building your personal echo chamber?
Please indicate the input that is so valuable that I am missing out on by disregarding the words of a misanthrope?
That perhaps one should consider non-utopian images of humans when discussing systems present in society.
I do not accept humans are static. Much research on human societies shows that behavior and culture are founded in material conditions and environment. These can change, as they have throughout human history.
But you don't want to think about any of the realities.
What is that even supposed to mean? Like yes, people have always existend in an environment centered around material resources. Food being a material resource, for example.
I assume that by "any of the realities" you mean "other perspectives" or "other ideologies" here.
I do want to think about other perspectives and ideologies.
But I also allow myself to criticize them.
I especially allow myself to criticize people who try to prevent others from telling their perspectives, for example by calling them a misanthrope in a demeaning manner.
No investigation, you have nothing valuable to input. Simple as.
Marxism is a non-utopian world view. We just don't tolerate misanthropes who think human nature is real, or locked in a static state free from material conditions
LOL
QED
You keep telling yourself that.